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Unread 08-10-2015, 11:34 PM
Wingers
 
Default 4-4-2

Why has this become so frowned upon by the officianados? I can not remember a first team squad that has screamed 442 louder than the current one. It's as if 442 is deemed as failure.

We have holding and attacking midfielders, two natural wingers, England's most prolific strikers, a sexy liddle Spanish number ten a flat back 4 with an absolute God in the sticks.

Why is 442 so wrong?
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:38 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
Why has this become so frowned upon by the officianados? I can not remember a first team squad that has screamed 442 louder than the current one. It's as if 442 is deemed as failure.

We have holding and attacking midfielders, two natural wingers, England's most prolific strikers, a sexy liddle Spanish number ten a flat back 4 with an absolute God in the sticks.

Why is 442 so wrong?
did you see the first 20 minutes against arsenal?

it's aficionado, incidentally.
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:39 PM
sa7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
did you see the first 20 minutes against arsenal?

it's aficionado, incidentally.
Unless you're really into refereeing
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:40 PM
Wingers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
did you see the first 20 minutes against arsenal?

it's aficionado, incidentally.
Yes which is why we should have reverted to 442 to get something out of the game.

Aficionado- got it.
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:45 PM
Zorg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa7
Unless you're really into refereeing
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:49 PM
jem
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
Yes which is why we should have reverted to 442 to get something out of the game.

Aficionado- got it.
the problem is that players you call natural wingers aren't. the closest thing we have is young, but none of the other options offers much in defence, so we effectively played 4-2-4 (configure the front 4 as 3-1, they're not midfielders). arsenal would be the worst match-up, but there probably isn't a team in the premiership against whom it would be sensible to play a 2-man midfield unless they are both sitting and the forwards do the pressing.
 
Unread 08-10-2015, 11:55 PM
Wingers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
the problem is that players you call natural wingers aren't. the closest thing we have is young, but none of the other options offers much in defence, so we effectively played 4-2-4 (configure the front 4 as 3-1, they're not midfielders). arsenal would be the worst match-up, but there probably isn't a team in the premiership against whom it would be sensible to play a 2-man midfield unless they are both sitting and the forwards do the pressing.
No! Achtung! We have Martial and Depay both are naturally wide players who can also both play with either foot. We also have a 30'odd a season striker when he's actually playing as a striker. A play making Spanish cantona. A Worldy centre half in Mr smalls, decent full backs and a universal keeper.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:02 AM
Crumps
 
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The lack of proper midfielders has put an end to it more than owt. Playing one sitting and one attacking midfielder will just get you completely overrun.

Makelele's fault.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:04 AM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
No! Achtung! We have Martial and Depay both are naturally wide players who can also both play with either foot. We also have a 30'odd a season striker when he's actually playing as a striker. A play making Spanish cantona. A Worldy centre half in Mr smalls, decent full backs and a universal keeper.
er.... both martial and memphis are forwards who like to be in or come into the middle. there is more to being a winger. for a start, you have to track back and cover your fullback. if we want to play 4-4-2, it would be with young and valencia wide. bearing in mind valencia won't take on a man or cross, that's hardly ideal.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:13 AM
Wingers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
er.... both martial and memphis are forwards who like to be in or come into the middle. there is more to being a winger. for a start, you have to track back and cover your fullback. if we want to play 4-4-2, it would be with young and valencia wide. bearing in mind valencia won't take on a man or cross, that's hardly ideal.
Again, no.

Young and Valencia are wide players, one of them is a really shit wide player who thinks that running in a straight line until a full back looks likely to approach, at which point you hit him with your cross is acceptable. And the other is at a coming of the bench when the more technically gifted player has worn out the full back with guile and daring standard.

Wing play isn't just about dummying your way down the flank until you see the bye line. It's producing the right threat at the right time. Hit a cross from 25 yards down the wing from the half way line, Like Beckham or cut inside with a tricky run and pull the centre half out.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:21 AM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
Again, no.

Young and Valencia are wide players, one of them is a really shit wide player who thinks that running in a straight line until a full back looks likely to approach, at which point you hit him with your cross is acceptable. And the other is at a coming of the bench when the more technically gifted player has worn out the full back with guile and daring standard.

Wing play isn't just about dummying your way down the flank until you see the bye line. It's producing the right threat at the right time. Hit a cross from 25 yards down the wing from the half way line, Like Beckham or cut inside with a tricky run and pull the centre half out.
so who do we have that does that and tracks back?
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:25 AM
Wingers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
so who do we have that does that and tracks back?
We don't need track backers if we have a flat back 4. Darmian looked wobbley ( for the first time) having to push forward. I see no need. You only need over lapping full backs if you have a front three that comes inside, as in the old inside right/ left.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 12:32 AM
jem
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
We don't need track backers if we have a flat back 4. Darmian looked wobbley ( for the first time) having to push forward. I see no need. You only need over lapping full backs if you have a front three that comes inside, as in the old inside right/ left.
we need cover for the defence. a two-man midfield doesn't provide it. most teams playing 4-4-2 defend with two banks of four. that requires the wingers to play their part in the defensive formation. darmian looked wobbly one-on-one with sanchez. but then any defender would look wobbly if left exposed. except paul mcgrath. and we don't have one of those.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 02:05 AM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
No! Achtung! We have Martial and Depay both are naturally wide players who can also both play with either foot. We also have a 30'odd a season striker when he's actually playing as a striker. A play making Spanish cantona. A Worldy centre half in Mr smalls, decent full backs and a universal keeper.
Who?
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 02:23 AM
Grimson
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumps
The lack of proper midfielders has put an end to it more than owt. Playing one sitting and one attacking midfielder will just get you completely overrun.

Makelele's fault.
Pretty much true. Not many modern managers want to be outnumbered in the centre of the pitch these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
We don't need track backers if we have a flat back 4. Darmian looked wobbley ( for the first time) having to push forward. I see no need. You only need over lapping full backs if you have a front three that comes inside, as in the old inside right/ left.
You need midfielders tracking back if the other side send their fullbacks forward. Your fullbacks are either going to be marking wide players, or tucked inside to help if the opposition attack more centrally. Either way, an overlapping fullback not tracked by a midfielder is going to spell major trouble.

If your fullbacks don't push forward in the modern game, they are sitting targets to be attacked. Pushing forward helps pin back the opposition wide players/fullbacks. It does expose you to counters, but most managers take that risk for the greater control of a game it gives you.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 04:30 PM
Wingers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimson
Pretty much true. Not many modern managers want to be outnumbered in the centre of the pitch these days.



You need midfielders tracking back if the other side send their fullbacks forward. Your fullbacks are either going to be marking wide players, or tucked inside to help if the opposition attack more centrally. Either way, an overlapping fullback not tracked by a midfielder is going to spell major trouble.

If your fullbacks don't push forward in the modern game, they are sitting targets to be attacked. Pushing forward helps pin back the opposition wide players/fullbacks. It does expose you to counters, but most managers take that risk for the greater control of a game it gives you.
No one in the league plays with wingers though. Yes as a winger you have a duty to track back and defend but you don't have to fill the position of an attacking full back if your back four are a unit. We have the perfect squad for 442. It gives us plenty of options from the bench too. The centre of midfield has box to box players in there with the likes schnied and Herrera and defensive, yet creative players like Carrick and Schwiens.
Wilson and Rooney as tit liners, Depay, Martial, Young, Perarria as wingers. Fellani and val as last ditch fodder.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 05:11 PM
jem
 
Default

I think it's safe to say we are all on board like pi.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 05:44 PM
Grimson
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingers
No one in the league plays with wingers though. Yes as a winger you have a duty to track back and defend but you don't have to fill the position of an attacking full back if your back four are a unit. We have the perfect squad for 442. It gives us plenty of options from the bench too. The centre of midfield has box to box players in there with the likes schnied and Herrera and defensive, yet creative players like Carrick and Schwiens.
Wilson and Rooney as tit liners, Depay, Martial, Young, Perarria as wingers. Fellani and val as last ditch fodder.
He doesn't play Herrera, Wilson, or Perreira.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 06:18 PM
Tiberian
 
Default

Herrera could not play in a 2 man midfield, simply not good enough defensively.

Mata off Rooney, with Depay and Martial wide and a Schweinsteiger-Herrera midfield would play some good football but the back 4 would be terribly exposed.

Modern wingers as a group seem to want to play like Ronaldo, Bale, Ronaldinho or Henry, all the attacking freedom with little defensive responsibility.
 
Unread 09-10-2015, 10:23 PM
Buck
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
Herrera could not play in a 2 man midfield, simply not good enough defensively.

Mata off Rooney, with Depay and Martial wide and a Schweinsteiger-Herrera midfield would play some good football but the back 4 would be terribly exposed.

Modern wingers as a group seem to want to play like Ronaldo, Bale, Ronaldinho or Henry, all the attacking freedom with little defensive responsibility.
It's the graveyard shift.

Score a few goals and you're putting a case forward to be that 10 so you have no defensive work to do, plus being central opens up the pitch more. However that's when dribbling is sacrificed for potency. See Eden Hazard now.
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