Louis Van Gaal until 2017?

Originally Posted by dunk

It's an interesting theory, and one easily subscribed to, apparently, however, if it's the manager and he's £#%&!ing useless and is ruining the player, how come his league record against the top sides is so good hmm? Riddle me that.

Because United are very poor against teams who aren't interested in having a game of football with them.

However their true kryptonite is teams who press aggressively and force them back as seen at Anfield the other night, at the emirates and against teams like Leicester.

Originally Posted by dunk

Simply because in the games against better sides it's more a game of football, they get a bit more space and time because the opposition don't tend to sit in and deny space in the final third to the same degree, which means they have more options for the forward pass. They also suddenly step their game up and do as they're supposed to, make less mistakes etc. The hallmark of the spineless shitc*** if ever there was one (hello Fabrizio Collocini )

Most of the time we come unstuck against the shit teams because we don't have the quality to unpick them in the final third, and get hit one the break as we overcommit and the concentration wanes, stupid mistakes come in, or the confidence goes as we haven't broken them down. It doesn't apply in the same way against the better teams as they aren't sitting back and the expectations are different.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Do we have a single outfield player right now who would get even close to the Moscow '08 final side?

yes. carrick. :0)

anyways, smalling would be as good as vidic in that team. and I don't rate tevez much at all. would rather have martial. and luke shaw (although he isn't playing at the moment) looked evra-esque before his injury.

but that's not really the point. the way we play does not allow the better players to express themselves. we fail to create chances, not because the strikers are shit or not strikers, but because we are not set up to create chances. rather, to minimise risks.

Originally Posted by jem

yes. carrick. :0)

anyways, smalling would be as good as vidic in that team. and I don't rate tevez much at all. would rather have martial. and luke shaw (although he isn't playing at the moment) looked evra-esque before his injury.

but that's not really the point. the way we play does not allow the better players to express themselves. we fail to create chances, not because the strikers are shit or not strikers, but because we are not set up to create chances. rather, to minimise risks.

Stop taking the piss.

Originally Posted by jem

yes. carrick. :0)

anyways, smalling would be as good as vidic in that team. and I don't rate tevez much at all. would rather have martial. and luke shaw (although he isn't playing at the moment) looked evra-esque before his injury.

but that's not really the point. the way we play does not allow the better players to express themselves. we fail to create chances, not because the strikers are shit or not strikers, but because we are not set up to create chances. rather, to minimise risks.

Correct.

Liverpool have their flaws, but they are much better coming forward than us and generally more of a goal threat.

I don't believe for a moment that Can, Lallana, Benteke, Sturridge, Countinho, Firmino or Joe Allen are more creative or threatening than our forward players.

And what about Leicester......Vardy, mahrez and £#%&!ing Danny drinkwater.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

De Gea.

no reflection on de gea, but i'd have vds back in a heartbeat...

tbf not sure even vds could organise our current centre backs.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Stop taking the piss.

someone was bound to post that

Originally Posted by jem

yes. carrick. :0)

anyways, smalling would be as good as vidic in that team. and I don't rate tevez much at all. would rather have martial. and luke shaw (although he isn't playing at the moment) looked evra-esque before his injury.

but that's not really the point. the way we play does not allow the better players to express themselves. we fail to create chances, not because the strikers are shit or not strikers, but because we are not set up to create chances. rather, to minimise risks.

we're organised to mitigate risk, not to minimise risk. i know it often looks like you're right, but it's not supposed to be like that.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Stop taking the piss.

you first.

Originally Posted by dunk

Simply because in the games against better sides it's more a game of football, they get a bit more space and time because the opposition don't tend to sit in and deny space in the final third to the same degree, which means they have more options for the forward pass. They also suddenly step their game up and do as they're supposed to, make less mistakes etc. The hallmark of the spineless shitc*** if ever there was one (hello Fabrizio Collocini )

Most of the time we come unstuck against the shit teams because we don't have the quality to unpick them in the final third, and get hit one the break as we overcommit and the concentration wanes, stupid mistakes come in, or the confidence goes as we haven't broken them down. It doesn't apply in the same way against the better teams as they aren't sitting back and the expectations are different.

against a team set up to hold their positions the wisdom of setting out with tactics designed to move them out of position is questionable, no... it's tactical nous we lack more than anything, but vision, reading of the game and decision-making are also lacking...

we get caught on the break when the screen is weakened and our key defenders are exposed. ordinarily we would overload the sides and rotate possession, but constant injuries in wide areas have severely hampered us and made mitigating risk an exercise in pedantic football that would grace wilkins and sexton in their crusty pomp...

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Correct.

Liverpool have their flaws, but they are much better coming forward than us and generally more of a goal threat.

I don't believe for a moment that Can, Lallana, Benteke, Sturridge, Countinho, Firmino or Joe Allen are more creative or threatening than our forward players.

And what about Leicester......Vardy, mahrez and £#%&!ing Danny drinkwater.

I think people have completely lost sight of who's playing for us up front atm. Memphis, Martial, Lingard, Rashford.

If your life was on the line in a match, you'd pick Sturridge, Coutinho and Firmino over them as a group all day long.

Our forward line talented, but it's very much for the future. Right now it's incredibly limited.

Originally Posted by jem

you first.

Sorry, pal. But for the rest of the post, again Robin Van Persie hit double figures in the league last season when he could barely run.

Stick a Kane, Diego Costa or Aguero in this side and they score plenty. Service is not unrelated to movement of the striker. We have nothing there.

Originally Posted by dunk

Simply because in the games against better sides it's more a game of football, they get a bit more space and time because the opposition don't tend to sit in and deny space in the final third to the same degree, which means they have more options for the forward pass. They also suddenly step their game up and do as they're supposed to, make less mistakes etc. The hallmark of the spineless shitc*** if ever there was one (hello Fabrizio Collocini )

Most of the time we come unstuck against the shit teams because we don't have the quality to unpick them in the final third, and get hit one the break as we overcommit and the concentration wanes, stupid mistakes come in, or the confidence goes as we haven't broken them down. It doesn't apply in the same way against the better teams as they aren't sitting back and the expectations are different.

Some truth there, the top teams are not as willing to cede possession or set up to defend against teams who can dominate the ball. Most games with Utd do have the same pattern, sterile possession, nervousness, frustration.

More nuance to it, trying to play in the same way against the lesser teams has been a problem.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

no reflection on de gea, but i'd have vds back in a heartbeat...

tbf not sure even vds could organise our current centre backs.

Yeah, you would not change that back 4 but at least Dave would have an argument.

against a team set up to hold their positions, you have to vary your play - taking men on with the ball being a very important option (martial, schweini and... on a good day.... memphis), being able to run or pass (herrera, not so much mata), finding space between the set positions (barca v park)..... actually being prepared to cross when we get the ball wide - not just aimless lumps into the box (which we don't do either - blind as wing back v liverpool a classic example), but balls behind the defence for our quick players to burn onto. if the defence stay deep, run at them.

moving the other team about should not just be about lateral passing, but about quick penetration, running, dribbling skills, yes... passing, but forward.... we are too slow and one-dimensional. the worst of fergie's teams used to waddle the ball up the middle and then pass in a big arc around the area before getting frustrated and lumping the ball in. it is no way to enjoy football.

we aren't dynamic and we are too focused on keeping possession in areas where it is ok to take risks.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Stick a Kane, Diego Costa or Aguero in this side and they score plenty. Service is not unrelated to movement of the striker. We have nothing there.

I doubt kane or costa would flourish in our team. I hope we don't find out the hard way re kane. aguero could play in any system, but even he seems to come deep far too much (maybe because city are a bit shit) to be as effective as he could be. lumping the ball up to costa (fellaini 2.0) would be a horrible way to play. he might be able to bully his way to a chance, but it's not football.

I would rather have martial and memphis.

Originally Posted by jem

against a team set up to hold their positions, you have to vary your play - taking men on with the ball being a very important option (martial, schweini and... on a good day.... memphis), being able to run or pass (herrera, not so much mata), finding space between the set positions (barca v park)..... actually being prepared to cross when we get the ball wide - not just aimless lumps into the box (which we don't do either - blind as wing back v liverpool a classic example), but balls behind the defence for our quick players to burn onto. if the defence stay deep, run at them.

moving the other team about should not just be about lateral passing, but about quick penetration, running, dribbling skills, yes... passing, but forward.... we are too slow and one-dimensional. the worst of fergie's teams used to waddle the ball up the middle and then pass in a big arc around the area before getting frustrated and lumping the ball in. it is no way to enjoy football.

we aren't dynamic and we are too focused on keeping possession in areas where it is ok to take risks.

Quality in 1v1 situations or good overlaps from full-backs is vital for breaking down deep defences. It's an area Guardiola was keen to address last summer with two quick-footed and skillful wide players to give depth in that area as Ribery and Robben age. He has it in the middle with Thiago. Van Gaal patently encourages his wide players to run with the ball (no idea where the nonsense to the contrary comes from) but Martial is the only one who's actually much good at it. Lingard and Memphis have less success. Rashford has looked good.

You need proper, dynamic footballers to play dynamic football. Rooney and Mata are one-paced, Smalling, Darmian and Fellaini are technically woeful, Schneiderlin doesn't want the ball enough and there's no striker with goalscoring instincts that will make the right runs. Maybe until Rashford.

A natural goalscorer would have kept our head above water during this year of the rebuild. Incredible oversight.

I see costa just got himself sent off again. what an absolute fist-my-own-face.

Originally Posted by jem

I see costa just got himself sent off again.

First time for Chelsea.

Originally Posted by jem

against a team set up to hold their positions, you have to vary your play - taking men on with the ball being a very important option (martial, schweini and... on a good day.... memphis), being able to run or pass (herrera, not so much mata), finding space between the set positions (barca v park)..... actually being prepared to cross when we get the ball wide - not just aimless lumps into the box (which we don't do either - blind as wing back v liverpool a classic example), but balls behind the defence for our quick players to burn onto. if the defence stay deep, run at them.

moving the other team about should not just be about lateral passing, but about quick penetration, running, dribbling skills, yes... passing, but forward.... we are too slow and one-dimensional. the worst of fergie's teams used to waddle the ball up the middle and then pass in a big arc around the area before getting frustrated and lumping the ball in. it is no way to enjoy football.

we aren't dynamic and we are too focused on keeping possession in areas where it is ok to take risks.

I doubt kane or costa would flourish in our team. I hope we don't find out the hard way re kane. aguero could play in any system, but even he seems to come deep far too much (maybe because city are a bit shit) to be as effective as he could be. lumping the ball up to costa (fellaini 2.0) would be a horrible way to play. he might be able to bully his way to a chance, but it's not football.

I would rather have martial and memphis.

agree on costa but think the point is if you're gonna be prepared to lump the ball up to the striker why not bring one in that suits rather than use fellarni... it's all about width; to stop it the opponent has to shift position and that's when you exploit the fact you've (in van gaal speak) broken their organisation. if they double up you create triangles, if they bring another you create a box and so on; you have third man runs narrow and wide, and keep the switch on... we have had chronic problems getting wide players on the pitch on both sides. it's been a massive handicap to the way we play, and the squad is structured towards that style...

Originally Posted by jem

I doubt kane or costa would flourish in our team. I hope we don't find out the hard way re kane. aguero could play in any system, but even he seems to come deep far too much (maybe because city are a bit shit) to be as effective as he could be. lumping the ball up to costa (fellaini 2.0) would be a horrible way to play. he might be able to bully his way to a chance, but it's not football.

I would rather have martial and memphis.

Like I say, a paralysed RvP got into double figures in the league last year.

Defoe has 11 league goals for Sam Allardyce's Sunderland ffs

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Quality in 1v1 situations or good overlaps from full-backs is vital for breaking down deep defences. It's an area Guardiola was keen to address last summer with two quick-footed and skillful wide players to give depth in that area as Ribery and Robben age. He has it in the middle with Thiago. Van Gaal patently encourages his wide players to run with the ball (no idea where the nonsense to the contrary comes from) but Martial is the only one who's actually much good at it. Lingard and Memphis have less success. Rashford has looked good.

You need proper, dynamic footballers to play dynamic football. Rooney and Mata are one-paced, Smalling, Darmian and Fellaini are technically woeful, Schneiderlin doesn't want the ball enough and there's no striker with goalscoring instincts that will make the right runs. Maybe until Rashford.

A natural goalscorer would have kept our head above water during this year of the rebuild. Incredible oversight.

martial and memphis are the right sort of players. herrera is dynamic; king louis plays him in a 2 deep.

obvs we have dynamic players - lingard, rashford, valencia (minus lvg's colostomy bag), young, shaw, rojo, jones, schweini... even smalling can run up the middle pinching his nose. rooney is dynamic enough in the box. but van gaal likes mata and fellaini.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Not saying he shouldn't be chosen, but usually if you've got a large amount of young players you'd look for an appropriate coach.

Do United have a large amount of young players, of the co92 standard? I'd suggest not.

Fergie let the youth system go to shit and the glazers have just cut the budget. Hardly a club with ambition to develop a team of homegrown youth. It's an image they play up to for brand reasons, or for individuals to dismiss or play up a particular managers chances with the fans, but there's no evidence of intent to actually live up to it.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

If thats the case, then whoever comes in will have that problem.

However, I think most of the objections from the players stem from Moyes and lvg being shit.

People are set in their ways. There's a resistance to new ideas. Especially if the old ideas were winning things. That, along with his lack of stature was Moyes' problem. Van gaal seems to have been given a chance due to his stature before the players eventually rejected his methods after continuing to get criticised for playing shit.

Mourinho will likely be given the same chance van gaal had before the players judge him. Hopefully he'll have the sense to make sure his coaches and assistants are all pulling in the same direction.

I wonder about these managers sometimes. Obviously most have that same 'I'm the experienced guy, you don't know what you are looking at' arrogance to them, and there is obviously some truth to that; I mean we can't know what's going on behind the scenes, and haven't had the opportunity or experience of spending each working day thinking only about football. But isn't there some aspect of this stuff that is self evident, even to an amateur?

Do they really think they can say whatever they want and we are so thick we will ignore what we see and just take their word for it? I for one would hate to see what van Gaal's methods not working would look like.