Inverted Wingers

Bayern seemed to start this off successfully with Ribery and Robben, but maybe it worked because they were so good.

What if we had 2 quality overlapping fullbacks who provide an option to go both ways but also draw defenders? It worked well with Shaw and Rashford for a bit.

Antony always seems to have 2 or 3 defenders closing him down and no option with anyone outside. Garnacho has the ability to go both ways which helps.

Realistically we aren't going to ditch Antony any time soon so need a system that works.

Could be in "The things that shouldn't go together" thread with inverted full-backs. Constantly overlapping ones would be much more useful, IMO.

Not sure why anyone would actively favour having two inverted wingers in the first place. I'd sooner choose wingers based on their ability and effectiveness rather than whether they like to come inside or not. Ideally, it would be nice to have wingers that can go both ways on either side, regardless of their preference, at least to a reasonable extent.

Whatever the answer is, it doesn't involve Antony.

Our wingers and full backs are the biggest issue in us not creating many chances.

Robben and Ribery scored and created at consistenty good levels. Rashford over the past year is in the bottom 19% for expected assisted goals in the top 5 leagues...he creates barely anything. Nor does Antony. Or Wan Bissaka. Or Dalot etc.

Originally Posted by redhegemony

Bayern seemed to start this off successfully with Ribery and Robben, but maybe it worked because they were so good.

What if we had 2 quality overlapping fullbacks who provide an option to go both ways but also draw defenders? It worked well with Shaw and Rashford for a bit.

Antony always seems to have 2 or 3 defenders closing him down and no option with anyone outside. Garnacho has the ability to go both ways which helps.

Realistically we aren't going to ditch Antony any time soon so need a system that works.

Not so sure. Amad back. Talk of Olise in the summer. Problem as usual is Antony is on a contract no other club would ever mach.

Originally Posted by shenwen

Not so sure. Amad back. Talk of Olise in the summer. Problem as usual is Antony is on a contract no other club would ever mach.

talk.

like talk of amad going on loan?

Originally Posted by Coracao

Whatever the answer is, it doesn't involve Antony.

Our wingers and full backs are the biggest issue in us not creating many chances.

Robben and Ribery scored and created at consistenty good levels. Rashford over the past year is in the bottom 19% for expected assisted goals in the top 5 leagues...he creates barely anything. Nor does Antony. Or Wan Bissaka. Or Dalot etc.

https://youtu.be/MThNOARPagA?si=LnfQTS44HkZRGDOt

https://youtu.be/OMr8d5C1fGM?si=TLjFOBOSwU1bkuFC

Originally Posted by jem

talk.

like talk of amad going on loan?

I'll take talk for now. It's as good as it gets.

Originally Posted by Coracao

Whatever the answer is, it doesn't involve Antony.

Our wingers and full backs are the biggest issue in us not creating many chances.

Robben and Ribery scored and created at consistenty good levels. Rashford over the past year is in the bottom 19% for expected assisted goals in the top 5 leagues...he creates barely anything. Nor does Antony. Or Wan Bissaka. Or Dalot etc.

It doesn't matter what systems we do or don't play when neither your RB or RW is capable of crossing the ball to a teammate. Left is slightly better with Shaw fit and Garnacho playing but not by much.

Originally Posted by goldfinger II

Could be in "The things that shouldn't go together" thread with inverted full-backs. Constantly overlapping ones would be much more useful, IMO.

Not sure why anyone would actively favour having two inverted wingers in the first place. I'd sooner choose wingers based on their ability and effectiveness rather than whether they like to come inside or not. Ideally, it would be nice to have wingers that can go both ways on either side, regardless of their preference, at least to a reasonable extent.

I would substitute ‘essential’ for “nice”.

Whether wingers are inverted or not isn’t the problem imo, the issue is that it generally only works under a particular set of circumstances that we don’t have, ie the aforementioned overlapping fb’s, and even then with wide men who favour their other foot rather than absolutely limited to that foot, and they absolutely must have an accurate shot on them.
With Antony it’s ludicrous. He can’t shoot worth a shit, and I don’t think i’ve ever seen a full back take three steps inside before; it’s like having an extra centre back.

The biggest problem though are these modern managers who ONLY play one way because they’re so enamoured with their ideas. Here’s a newsflash mate, sometimes it don’t work. It’s like playing out of the back; it can work under certain conditions, but if you’re playing an effective high press team, why give them what they want? It’s madness. At best you’re sowing fear and uncertainty across your back line, but they appear to view any pragmatic shift as a condemnation of their ideas.

I understand why its in vogue at the moment but I was not at all surprised that Garnacho playing on the right was just as dangerous as him being on the left.

Proper wide forward players should be able to do both and it amazes me that Rashford has such a complex about playing on the right.

Also surprised that Anthony doesn't ever play on the left. Its clearly not working for him on the right so why not see if he'd be any good on the left and actually go round the outside. I realise there is a bit more competition for that spot, and the pref is still to invert so probably see why it doesn't happen, but I'd be interested to see. Can't be any worse.

Originally Posted by RedNick80

I understand why its in vogue at the moment but I was not at all surprised that Garnacho playing on the right was just as dangerous as him being on the left.

Proper wide forward players should be able to do both and it amazes me that Rashford has such a complex about playing on the right.

Also surprised that Anthony doesn't ever play on the left. Its clearly not working for him on the right so why not see if he'd be any good on the left and actually go round the outside. I realise there is a bit more competition for that spot, and the pref is still to invert so probably see why it doesn't happen, but I'd be interested to see. Can't be any worse.

He would have the same problem in reverse I think. He’s so one footed the rb would just show him inside and make it virtually impossible for him to hit the byline. He would suffer from a lack of options no matter where he played; the full backs in the Prem are just too good.

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

He would have the same problem in reverse I think. He’s so one footed the rb would just show him inside and make it virtually impossible for him to hit the byline. He would suffer from a lack of options no matter where he played; the full backs in the Prem are just too good.

except ours

Originally Posted by goldfinger II

Constantly overlapping ones would be much more useful, IMO.
.

I think i've reached saturation point of watching those

I stopped reading at 'inverted'.


Could try a left-footed winger on the left wing and see if they can cross. Maybe try the same on the right.

Originally Posted by atticusgrinch

https://youtu.be/MThNOARPagA?si=LnfQTS44HkZRGDOt

https://youtu.be/OMr8d5C1fGM?si=TLjFOBOSwU1bkuFC

Why do you champion this utter crayon of a footballer. I sort of get bunks defense of Antony (just about) but Dalot is an absolutely shocking player....

Originally Posted by redhegemony

except ours

Dalot can't defend nor cross effectively. Only plus point is he seems to love Utd.

‘Inverting the Pyramid’ is interesting in that it shows there have been leaps in tactical thinking but it happens infrequently, with sometimes decades between iterations.

A lot of the faffing around with formations in modern football is little more than window dressing and attempts by managers to look like they’re on the frontier of modern thinking about the game.

Just find a formation that suits the players you have and make sure they’re all buying in to it and giving 100%. It’s not hard.

Inverted wingers makes things incredibly difficult for a full back if that winger has all the attributes to make it work.

Saka for example is a nightmare for full backs as he is properly rapid, solid unit physically, bags if he comes inside & can cross on the outside - double figures for goals & assists for 3 years on the spin & he's only 22.

If you're not built for it or deploy it as a tactic like United do with our players, it gets in our own way & slows the play down / makes it more predictable. Look at our Goals Scored column. Or even one of the stats £#%&!er ones like Big Chances Created from wide areas etc - they all come from Bruno, not the inverted lark we utilise.

Worse is we have a forward that makes great runs & is a quick, powerful unit & we then don't cross it. We don't give him the ball hardly at all for him to even miss chances

& then we get to the full backs who come inside & overload the midfield trying to allow for one vs one out wide... with players who have utterly depressing outcomes in taking players on.

We set ourselves up to fail with the approach, and as mentioned you get a coach with a philosophy or a myopia about how they want to play & we start to do stupid things over and over again. We also have injuries that don't allow us to deploy the tactics & personnel required to do what he wants with the first XI but that's his lack of flexibility & frankly it's not the first Dutch coach we've had recently that has made the same mistake.

Dutch philosophies are a symphony when you have the Ajax teams of the 70's & 80's but once you stick the players we have in their it somewhat falls apart. You need some actual brains to do the job on the pitch, not just in the coaching department. Tell them everything you think they need to know & they'll shoot from any angle rather than roll it across to Rassers

Originally Posted by Baron

Dutch philosophies are a symphony when you have the Ajax teams of the 70's & 80's but once you stick the players we have in their it somewhat falls apart. You need some actual brains to do the job on the pitch, not just in the coaching department. :

Think the setup of the academies that a player went through is well understated. Ajax players who come through the academy will have had the same formations and roles drilled into the to a point where its subconcious from 8/9 years of age.

Let's just play 4-4-forking-2 and buy a target man to knock long balls down to ras to poke in.

Hojlund’s lack of service this season is a result of our wingers and fullbacks.

We’ve had nobody overlapping and when both wingers come infield, one delays everything so the defence are set and there’s 2 marking Hojlund and Garnacho only wants to shoot.

It has to get addressed second half of the season

Originally Posted by tatty

‘Inverting the Pyramid’ is interesting in that it shows there have been leaps in tactical thinking but it happens infrequently, with sometimes decades between iterations.

A lot of the faffing around with formations in modern football is little more than window dressing and attempts by managers to look like they’re on the frontier of modern thinking about the game.

Just find a formation that suits the players you have and make sure they’re all buying in to it and giving 100%. It’s not hard.

Yes, 100% agree with this.

Too much of modern football is £#%&!ing about with things for the sake of it. Most of it is people trying to emulate Guardiola.