United's Winger Situation

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

we haven't got two traditional wingers

true. we've got three really.

Sadly not, we only really have one

Depends on the circumstances, but generally, I'd say no. Use the full-backs to widen the play and encourage more variation and fluidity from the attacking players than just hugging the touchline. With the players we have right now, United should be looking to set up as they did last night, with a front three and plenty of movement off the ball. Nani is especially wasted as a traditional winger. Someone with that quality of touch, close control and ambidexterity needs to be given the freedom to come infield and link up with players.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Depends on the circumstances, but generally, I'd say no. Use the full-backs to widen the play and encourage more variation and fluidity from the attacking players than just hugging the touchline. With the players we have right now, United should be looking to set up as they did last night, with a front three and plenty of movement off the ball. Nani is especially wasted as a traditional winger. Someone with that quality of touch, close control and ambidexterity needs to be given the freedom to come infield and link up with players.

Nani has usually had that freedom though so I don't see your point. Making the game as wide as possible can only but help players like Nani when they come in off the sides. Second half v Spurs he was a big threat as he has been many times in that set up. On the othe hand he's usually proved much less of a threat when we set up narrow.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Nani has usually had that freedom though so I don't see your point. Making the game as wide as possible can only but help players like Nani when they come in off the sides. Second half v Spurs he was a big threat as he has been many times in that set up. On the othe hand he's usually proved much less of a threat when we set up narrow.

The best he's looked over the last 18 months was in the summer with Portugal, where he came infield a lot, with the full-backs doing more to stretch the play out wide. I'm not saying he hasn't played like that for United, because he has, but I'd say when that's the case he isn't playing as a traditional winger, which is more what I'd associate Valencia's approach with. So I'd prefer a Nani/Welbeck in the front three to a Valencia.

Game's moved on from 4-4-2.

You'll get away with it if your 4 is:

Giggs Keane Ince kanchelskis


or,


Giggs Keane Scholes Beckham



You're not getting away with it with the geriatrics, shin ball merchants and general ne'er-do-wells we have at the moment.

Just read the rest of the thread and i see my thoughts are hardly revolutionary.

That's what £#%&!s me off about the management at the moment, everybody can see what the problem is but them.

Originally Posted by tatty

You're not getting away with it with the geriatrics, shin ball merchants and general ne'er-do-wells we have at the moment.

Exactly.

Imagine us playing a 4-4-2 with the players we have now.
Valencia becoming a passenger for 90minutes once he discovers he hasn't got the beating of his fullback, Nani or Young on the left, inconsistent & petulant, Giggs & Carrick playing 1mph stuff inside their own half.

4-3-3 may not be to everybody's liking but with the players we have it's the only formation that makes sense, just a shame Fergie's loathe to put out what appears to be the best 11 though.

valencia can quite happily play on the right of a diamond, nani and young can play in a front three. there's no problem with fitting those players into last night's formation.

Originally Posted by borsuk

last night it was interesting, in a boring-as-£#%&! kind of way, that we had leftie anderson on the right and rightie cleverley on the left. wonder what the reason for that was.

Defensive communication perhaps? No traditional wide player as cover so on the right at least Rafael and Anderson would have an easier time. It was the same against Newcastle though with Vermijl at RB so probably more to it.

Rafael has been a little more conservative in both CL games this season, especially when compared to the league games when he has been one of the main attacking threats and has constantly been going ahead of the ball. Played more in a backing up role in Europe, supporting the play rather than making those overlapping runs.

Cleverley played a lot from the left during his time at Wigan and he did look very comfortable in the role

Originally Posted by borsuk

valencia can quite happily play on the right of a diamond, nani and young can play in a front three. there's no problem with fitting those players into last night's formation.

would like to see valencia more centralised but he's been completely type cast by now and saf loves it that he hogs the touchline. Classic old school dream, strong, works hard and get them crosses in.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

The best he's looked over the last 18 months was in the summer with Portugal, where he came infield a lot, with the full-backs doing more to stretch the play out wide. I'm not saying he hasn't played like that for United, because he has, but I'd say when that's the case he isn't playing as a traditional winger, which is more what I'd associate Valencia's approach with. So I'd prefer a Nani/Welbeck in the front three to a Valencia.

so the best he's looked was when he was away from his united team-mates then

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Exactly.

Imagine us playing a 4-4-2 with the players we have now.
Valencia becoming a passenger for 90minutes once he discovers he hasn't got the beating of his fullback, Nani or Young on the left, inconsistent & petulant, Giggs & Carrick playing 1mph stuff inside their own half.

4-3-3 may not be to everybody's liking but with the players we have it's the only formation that makes sense, just a shame Fergie's loathe to put out what appears to be the best 11 though.

I think he was including Rooney in the shin-ballers tbh mate

hmmmm..... valencia is a bit lame as a winger, but is an ideal fullback. I initially thought young at least had good delivery, but really he's just shite. nani at least is unpredictable, but seems to have ronaldo's failings without his talent.

there is no excusing their collective inabilty to cross early behind the defence or to run deep and hit a cross that picks out a striker... none of them ever looks up. also, they are stop/start rather than flying and none of them really has the skills or tricks to beat a man. that last one runs through the team. all of them can cut in and shoot occasionally - this is nani's best weapon.

but for a winger to be effective, we need a quick striker who can dart onto the through ball or a couple who are good in the air and attack the penalty area. our build-up play is generally too ponderous and our strikers too often come deep for the ball or play with their backs to goal. we are are all sick of seeing the wingers stop and pass back and inside and the ball switching to the opposite wing then the defence.

we'd be better with a rotating front three of rooney, van p and nani, all coming wide and crossing, like ronaldo, rooney and ruud used to when we played a fluid front six. no dedicated winger as such. they all need to defend from the front too. players like cleverley and kagawa are just as happy to get into the area and one of them should played ahead of two mobile midfielders - say rafael and ando - who have to be disciplined when it comes to defending.

that said, I am happy for the fullbacks to push up alongside a single defensive midfielder in a 2-3-4-1 or 2-3-2-3, with two attacking central midfielders and the fullbacks not going out of their own half. .. or, if they do overlap the winger, that winger or midfielder must cover them.

no chance anyone has read all that so I may go off at a tangent about whether there is a place in the modern world for curtains, given how classy shutters look. so you lose the extra shelf space of the window sill, but nothing some occasional tables can't cope with.

a nice piano makes a room. not a baby grand... a nice old upright. something to do if the conversation dies, too.

Still with Rafael in midfield :shakehead: and Nani has the ability to beat a man and make it look effortless, it's just that once he's beat him once, he feels compelled to do it again, and again until he loses the ball.

Originally Posted by jem

hmmmm..... valencia is a bit lame as a winger, but is an ideal fullback. I initially thought young at least had good delivery, but really he's just shite. nani at least is unpredictable, but seems to have ronaldo's failings without his talent.

there is no excusing their collective inabilty to cross early behind the defence or to run deep and hit a cross that picks out a striker... none of them ever looks up. also, they are stop/start rather than flying and none of them really has the skills or tricks to beat a man. that last one runs through the team. all of them can cut in and shoot occasionally - this is nani's best weapon.

but for a winger to be effective, we need a quick striker who can dart onto the through ball or a couple who are good in the air and attack the penalty area. our build-up play is generally too ponderous and our strikers too often come deep for the ball or play with their backs to goal. we are are all sick of seeing the wingers stop and pass back and inside and the ball switching to the opposite wing then the defence.

we'd be better with a rotating front three of rooney, van p and nani, all coming wide and crossing, like ronaldo, rooney and ruud used to when we played a fluid front six. no dedicated winger as such. they all need to defend from the front too. players like cleverley and kagawa are just as happy to get into the area and one of them should played ahead of two mobile midfielders - say rafael and ando - who have to be disciplined when it comes to defending.

that said, I am happy for the fullbacks to push up alongside a single defensive midfielder in a 2-3-4-1 or 2-3-2-3, with two attacking central midfielders and the fullbacks not going out of their own half. .. or, if they do overlap the winger, that winger or midfielder must cover them.

no chance anyone has read all that so I may go off at a tangent about whether there is a place in the modern world for curtains, given how classy shutters look. so you lose the extra shelf space of the window sill, but nothing some occasional tables can't cope with.

a nice piano makes a room. not a baby grand... a nice old upright. something to do if the conversation dies, too.

I set fire to our upright, but managed to save my sisters and the kettle - true story that...


Nani is the closest we have to a fully armoured winger, but what we really need isn't 3-2-3-2 it's more 2 at the back, super-human full-backs with a high starting position and a superlative libero.

from there everything else will flow naturally. Gotze would help as well.

Originally Posted by dunk

Still with Rafael in midfield :shakehead: and Nani has the ability to beat a man and make it look effortless, it's just that once he's beat him once, he feels compelled to do it again, and again until he loses the ball.

nani can beat a man when he's running, but he's not good when he stops. which he keeps doing.

Originally Posted by borsuk

last night it was interesting, in a boring-as-£#%&! kind of way, that we had leftie anderson on the right and rightie cleverley on the left. wonder what the reason for that was.

It's pretty simple, isn't it

To encourage them to play the ball centrally, particularly to rooney who was playing slightly ahead of them. All our play last night was intended to go through the middle where we had Rooney, Hernandez and Van Persie all playing very close together. It also means that their first touch after receiving off Fletcher is inside rather than to open their body out and play an easy pass to the full back.

City do it with Nasri left-central and Silva right central and it proved very effective.

It's a good formation to use as it gives you greater possession which is important in Europe and it encourages more one and two touch play. I hope he sticks at it long term but I know he won't, especially with Phelan next to him.

It's a refreshing change from the boring 'get it out wide' shite that we will revert back to at the weekend

The formation we played was very good but without good enough players to execute it well. Rooney, fletcher, anderson, hernandez are all not comfortble with tight intricate passing. All need more than 3-4 touches on the ball and in hernandez case he is not comfortable with any sort of touch unless its in 6 yard box.

For me the best front 6 we can put out this season is

---------------RVP--------------
-----kagawa---------nani---------
---cleverley---------scholes-------
-------------carrick---------------

Maybe scholes can be replaced by powell if the bits and pieces of superb play he has shown so far.

This gives us enough goal threat, counter attacking play, wing play and defensive solidity with 3 midfielders.

I don't like rooney in nani's role, he comes to deep, needs too many touches on the ball and generally is clumsy in his play more often than not.

yep, if this season has shown us anything, it's that we should start nani ahead of rooney