United's Winger Situation

Traditionally United are all about playing with verve, skill and speed down the flanks.

In the last 3 and half years in particular some United supporters have moaned ever more about teams playing through us and attacking down the centre of the pitch. It has become almost second nature for them to bemoan the supposedly shit midfield and all the players in it.

The reality is that playing with 2 wingers United's midfield will always be vulnerable to quick counters on turnover of possession just as it always has been.

In Europe you can go right back to Athinaikos, Atletico Madrid, Galatasaray, Gothenburg and Rotor Volgograd to see this phenomenon. Fast forward to Leverkusen at Old Trafford, or AC Milan in 2005 and you see the same thing. And yet people get their knickers right in a twist about this current team like never before, as if somehow the traditional wing play United are famed for should just be jettisoned in favour of 4-5-1 (in whatever version you want to call it).

Well, when United were using 4-5-1 and churning out result after result guess what - the same people still whined all the time; they whined about how uninspiring it all was, how dull United had become, how the traditional verve and speed had been jettisoned in favour of a more conservative tactical web...

So in short do you think United should use genuine wingers as part of their default formation and tactics or not? Yes or No?

yes, but two decent ones instead of the useless @#%&!s we have now.

Use wingers. But use them like giggs and ronaldo. Not kick, run, cross like young (well cut back and cross) and valencia.

Wingers are fine if you've got a decent midfield. When you've got gaps in there the size of the sahara when we lose the ball that's the problem.

Wide forwards are fine. One of the problems with Valencia is that he almost always wants to go outside and does the same thing - drilling the ball low and hard into the area. When he cuts inside or takes his man on and plays a chip to the back post it suits the other forwards better. 4-2-3-1 helps us to be flexible.

Last night was our best team/shape imo (except maybe Scholes and Evans for Cleverly and Smalling against quicker teams that press).

Good wingers, yes. Backed up by a solid and dependable collection of FB's and CM's ideally.

Pie in the sky...

Scholes as quarterback, flakey fullbacks, ponderous wing play = vulnerable.

Nani does things that excite and confound in equal measure.

Valencia is hesitant and predictable at times.

Things didn't gel last night and I doubt we'll be seeing that particular line up in Europe again.

I don't understand wanting 'real' wingers and then slating Valencia, he's basically the black Kanchelskis isn't he? it's just the art of defending has evolved and the team needs to work harder to create space.

I mostly prefer the classic quantum jelly formation. i.e. when one side of the jelly presses forward, the other side of the jelly reflects this and fills the gaps behind the forward thrusting side of the jelly and are therefor able to sprin back into a defensive, non-thrusting jelly formation in the event of the forward thrusting jelly losing the ball

Originally Posted by Harri Jaffa

I don't understand wanting 'real' wingers and then slating Valencia, he's basically the black Kanchelskis isn't he? it's just the art of defending has evolved and the team needs to work harder to create space.

I mostly prefer the classic quantum jelly formation. i.e. when one side of the jelly presses forward, the other side of the jelly reflects this and fills the gaps behind the forward thrusting side of the jelly and are therefor able to sprin back into a defensive, non-thrusting jelly formation in the event of the forward thrusting jelly losing the ball

with rooney and anderson as the fat rum-soaked sponge fingers

Originally Posted by irk

with rooney and anderson as the fat rum-soaked sponge fingers

There's no quantum sponge finger theory mate

Originally Posted by Harri Jaffa

I don't understand wanting 'real' wingers and then slating Valencia, he's basically the black Kanchelskis isn't he? it's just the art of defending has evolved and the team needs to work harder to create space.

I mostly prefer the classic quantum jelly formation. i.e. when one side of the jelly presses forward, the other side of the jelly reflects this and fills the gaps behind the forward thrusting side of the jelly and are therefor able to sprin back into a defensive, non-thrusting jelly formation in the event of the forward thrusting jelly losing the ball

yeah, and also the jelly wingers need to get in synch

not only do teams defend more easily against rigid winger formations but they also attack better when the scrambling defence isn't as good as it used to be. or is it just that teams are far better these days at capitalising on counter-attacks whereas before we used to get away with it?

look at Real the other night, superb with Di Maria and Ronaldo on either side, but 4 or 5 times taken apart by nothing more than a powerful dribble straight down the middle after they emptied midfield... no idea where I was going with this so...

What I want to know is, what was Fergie planning when we were trying to sign Lucas Moura? Another winger who looks more of a Valencia-type winger, rather than an inverted winger like Di Maria or Robben.

Originally Posted by Harri Jaffa

There's no quantum sponge finger theory mate

I was thinking trifle. I didn't make myself clear, and for this I accept your apology. don't let it happen again.

now, who's the cream and custard?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

yeah, and also the jelly wingers need to get in synch

not only do teams defend more easily against rigid winger formations but they also attack better when the scrambling defence isn't as good as it used to be. or is it just that teams are far better these days at capitalising on counter-attacks whereas before we used to get away with it?

look at Real the other night, superb with Di Maria and Ronaldo on either side, but 4 or 5 times taken apart by nothing more than a powerful dribble straight down the middle after they emptied midfield... no idea where I was going with this so...

Maybe there is a choice between the attaking ability of 'real' wingers and defensive fragility.

I do think that the problem is aleviated somewhat is fullbacks can both cross, run past the last defender and take up a more defensive poistion when the other fullback is attacking.

Synched up jelly

Originally Posted by irk

I was thinking trifle. I didn't make myself clear, and for this I accept your apology. don't let it happen again.

now, who's the cream and custard?

:shakehead: reported

dont think we should use real wingers as such but surreal ones instead with fish on their heads etc.

Valencia and Nanners are our best pairing. Young should be slaughtered before the Anfield game this week to appease the angry Gods of Phlegm.

I still think we should break the bank for Big Balers - or offer Anderson in part exchange.

Should United use wingers

I thought I'd heard it all

wingers aren't the problem, the problem is a lack of a dominating presence in the middle. carrick is a good player, good positioning, interceptions, decent passing range but he's very passive, steps off rather than pressing, covers space rather than attacking his man. scholes is more aggressive but he can't keep it up all game.

all of our wingers would look a sight better if we had what we should have in the middle.

Originally Posted by borsuk

wingers aren't the problem, the problem is a lack of a dominating presence in the middle. carrick is a good player, good positioning, interceptions, decent passing range but he's very passive, steps off rather than pressing, covers space rather than attacking his man. scholes is more aggressive but he can't keep it up all game.

all of our wingers would look a sight better if we had what we should have in the middle.

in theory this is correct and widely held view.

in reality we've had very similar problems even with combinations of Robson, Ince, Keane, Butt and Scholes in the middle over the past 20 years in Europe.

I think teams are better at capitalising on ball turnover these days.


Jez

Defence is also a problem, 3 years ago it was possibly the best in Europe, certainly Vidic and Rio had a claim as the strongest CB partnership and Evra was one of the top left backs in the game. VDS behind with his experience meant it was a very solid unit.

Now Rio is maybe 80% of what he was, Vidic is coming back from injury, Evra has had a very poor 2 years and there is uncertainty over the Keeper. The team looks soft and vulnerable through the middle now. Utd should not be in a position where the wide players are told to play it safe because the rest of the team is not capable of dealing with the breakdowns in play that inevitably occur when a winger tries to make things happen. That type of thinking takes you to having a mediocrity like Downing on the wing, nice and tidy but utterly robotic and predictable.