United's Winger Situation

I'd love to see us adopt a 3-4-3 formation with the current squad.

Rio - Evans - Evra

Flethcer
Valencia - Anderson - Carrick

Kagawa
Rooney - RVP

Woudn't happen though.

Originally Posted by Jerry the Berry

It's pretty simple, isn't it

To encourage them to play the ball centrally, particularly to rooney who was playing slightly ahead of them. All our play last night was intended to go through the middle where we had Rooney, Hernandez and Van Persie all playing very close together. It also means that their first touch after receiving off Fletcher is inside rather than to open their body out and play an easy pass to the full back.

City do it with Nasri left-central and Silva right central and it proved very effective.

It's a good formation to use as it gives you greater possession which is important in Europe and it encourages more one and two touch play. I hope he sticks at it long term but I know he won't, especially with Phelan next to him.

It's a refreshing change from the boring 'get it out wide' shite that we will revert back to at the weekend

it could be. or it could be as simple as anderson and rafael having a common language. i think anderson on the left doesn't work very well because it naturally means he goes wide and he's not got the pace to go round the outside.

i'd love us to stick with that formation and players, just kagawa in rooney's position and rooney ahead where cheech was. give buttner a run and tell him to go outside of cleverley as much as possible. just looks a solid side with a lot of potential for good football and it seems to suit the squad we've got.

Originally Posted by borsuk

yep, if this season has shown us anything, it's that we should start nani ahead of rooney

I am not saying nani is better than rooney but just that it would be more suited to us. With nani we have someone who could take on a couple of players and also give a threat/outlet on the right wing. With rooney it would be even more narrow.

Rooney in that formation will also be good too as long as rooney is fine with going out wide and giving us some width (like he did against spurs, 1st goal where he put the cross in for nani).

Once our defence is fit and tight would love to see this though.

----------------RVP---------------
---Kagawa-----rooney--------nani--
------------Cleverley---------------
---------------Carrick--------------

for now, we need more midfield solidarity so that our £#%&!ed defence doesn't leak too many goals.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Traditionally United are all about playing with verve, skill and speed down the flanks.

In the last 3 and half years in particular some United supporters have moaned ever more about teams playing through us and attacking down the centre of the pitch. It has become almost second nature for them to bemoan the supposedly shit midfield and all the players in it.

The reality is that playing with 2 wingers United's midfield will always be vulnerable to quick counters on turnover of possession just as it always has been.

In Europe you can go right back to Athinaikos, Atletico Madrid, Galatasaray, Gothenburg and Rotor Volgograd to see this phenomenon. Fast forward to Leverkusen at Old Trafford, or AC Milan in 2005 and you see the same thing. And yet people get their knickers right in a twist about this current team like never before, as if somehow the traditional wing play United are famed for should just be jettisoned in favour of 4-5-1 (in whatever version you want to call it).

Well, when United were using 4-5-1 and churning out result after result guess what - the same people still whined all the time; they whined about how uninspiring it all was, how dull United had become, how the traditional verve and speed had been jettisoned in favour of a more conservative tactical web...

So in short do you think United should use genuine wingers as part of their default formation and tactics or not? Yes or No?

spack

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Exactly.

Imagine us playing a 4-4-2 with the players we have now.
Valencia becoming a passenger for 90minutes once he discovers he hasn't got the beating of his fullback, Nani or Young on the left, inconsistent & petulant, Giggs & Carrick playing 1mph stuff inside their own half.

4-3-3 may not be to everybody's liking but with the players we have it's the only formation that makes sense, just a shame Fergie's loathe to put out what appears to be the best 11 though.

This. And what Borshk said. The formation against Newcastle and Cluj is the best we can do in terms of the players we have. It's also the formation I expected us to start the season with given the signings of Kagawa and Van Persie, who are both intelligent and adaptable enough to work across a three and are, in broad terms, 'central players' . As Bors pointed out, it also allows us to rotate all our forwards and midfielders without anyone not really fitting in.

Don't get me wrong, we were far from thrilling the other night and, ironically, two wingers may have helped stretch Cluj a little, but I just felt a little better with a more solid base of three. Fletcher, Anderson and Cleverley can be a bit rough and ready as a three, but they were energetic, combative and mobile (yes, even Anderson!). Importantly, I think you could take any one of those out for either Giggs or Scholes and we'd still be solid, with both of them offering something different to whoever drops out. However, Giggs or Scholes + one other scares the shit out of me.

It Wont happen overnight or work everytime, but it allows us to get the best quality and variety from the players we have.

EDIT: we also seem to be suggesting that its all about formations. As big a problem for us as anything is our atttude. And for the most part, it £#%&!in stinks. So so so often we start a game with a 'meh' look on our face, shrugging our shoulders. Before we know it, we're getting bosses and can't get going. This will usually spur us in to action. But its pretty outrageous that it takes a threat to the result of the game to get us going. Spurs game was ofcourse the prime example. From passive little kittens, to angry REALLY pissed off united that should be starting every single game with that level of intensity. Sure, we'll leave ourselves open to a dempsey goal or two here and there, but they'll be few and far between a red wave. I wouldn't expect them to keep it up for 90 minutes, but there's no reason the general attitude shouldn't be like that. I think we've become extremely arrogant without following it through. Believing the old cliches about us, coined by other people.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

This. And what Borshk said. The formation against Newcastle and Cluj is the best we can do in terms of the players we have. It's also the formation I expected us to start the season with given the signings of Kagawa and Van Persie, who are both intelligent and adaptable enough to work across a three and are, in broad terms, 'central players' . As Bors pointed out, it also allows us to rotate all our forwards and midfielders without anyone not really fitting in.

Don't get me wrong, we were far from thrilling the other night and, ironically, two wingers may have helped stretch Cluj a little, but I just felt a little better with a more solid base of three. Fletcher, Anderson and Cleverley can be a bit rough and ready as a three, but they were energetic, combative and mobile (yes, even Anderson!). Importantly, I think you could take any one of those out for either Giggs or Scholes and we'd still be solid, with both of them offering something different to whoever drops out. However, Giggs or Scholes + one other scares the shit out of me.

It Wont happen overnight or work everytime, but it allows us to get the best quality and variety from the players we have.

i'd be a far happier man if it dawned on saf but he's just stuck in his ways with two in the middle and two out wide.

i would be shocked if he doesn't go 442 at the weekend.

I would fully expect scholes and carrick to start that game. He's basically said it himself.

I wouldn't be surprised if he played three in the middle on wed because he didn't trust those persons to play 2.

I don't see it changing at all.

but take wednesday's 3 for instance. Anderson was good imo, he offered an ability of those three to carry the ball forward, to drive as they say.
But he's unreliable.
Who could do that very role, who is made for that role, who moved late in the transfer season for 15m that was definetly getable? that man again.

can't afford cleverley and kagawa in same team.

fletch is shit.

if everyone is fit, our best bet would be:

de gea

valencia - smalling - vidic - evra/buttner

carrick - rafael

kagawa/cleverley

nani - van persie - rooney

however, we need to buy a defensive midfielder, a centre back and a winger.

and scholes, ando and welbeck will all fit too (young if we have to).

cheech and fletch are out in the cold.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

i'd be a far happier man if it dawned on saf but he's just stuck in his ways with two in the middle and two out wide.

i would be shocked if he doesn't go 442 at the weekend.

I would fully expect scholes and carrick to start that game. He's basically said it himself.

I wouldn't be surprised if he played three in the middle on wed because he didn't trust those persons to play 2.

I don't see it changing at all.

but take wednesday's 3 for instance. Anderson was good imo, he offered an ability of those three to carry the ball forward, to drive as they say.
But he's unreliable.
Who could do that very role, who is made for that role, who moved late in the transfer season for 15m that was definetly getable? that man again.

I don't mind Carrick or Scholes playing, just not in a two. Even if it was those two with just one of Anderson or Cleverly it would see a difference and a shift in formation that would stop us defaulting to the flanks. Defaulting to wings (whether its 'on' or not) with the ball, being passive and short of numbers without the ball, and our attitude are the three things killing us atm.

Originally Posted by jem

can't afford cleverley and kagawa in same team.

fletch is shit.

if everyone is fit, our best bet would be:

de gea

valencia - smalling - vidic - evra/buttner

carrick - rafael

kagawa/cleverley

nani - van persie - rooney

however, we need to buy a defensive midfielder, a centre back and a winger.

Originally Posted by dragflick

I'd rather rafael and fabio, but what can you do......?

Originally Posted by jem

I'd rather rafael and fabio, but what can you do......?

good one

Originally Posted by dragflick

Originally Posted by believe

good one

I'm with Jem on this one - Fabio would be excellent in midfield.

He was blinding against Arsenal when he played there

for the deep midfield, we need someone/two who is mobile, tough, can tackle, has a bit of skill to supplement the more adventurous attacks (passing, dribbling, shooting). tell me who ticks the boxes better than the twin terriers? given that jack wilshere isn't in our squad.

there are people on here who think fletch fits the bill. and you're laughing at me?!

I'm finding this idea that 4-3-3 best suits the players we have a bit daft tbh

The players we have include 4 strikers, plus Kagawa, Nani and Young who would all be competing for the front 3 positions, whether that includes the front of a diamond or not.

4-3-3 doesn't best suit the players we have any more than any other formation does. And that's without even dissecting the blatant flaw in any notion of allowing Kagawa to dictate the play in an area of the field Rooney is always going to drift into whether he's supposed to or not, and the type of football that scenario has almost programmed the team to play.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

I'm finding this idea that 4-3-3 best suits the players we have a bit daft tbh

The players we have include 4 strikers, plus Kagawa, Nani and Young who would all be competing for the front 3 positions, whether that includes the front of a diamond or not.

4-3-3 doesn't best suit the players we have any more than any other formation does. And that's without even dissecting the blatant flaw in any notion of allowing Kagawa to dictate the play in an area of the field Rooney is always going to drift into whether he's supposed to or not, and the type of football that scenario has almost programmed the team to play.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

I'm finding this idea that 4-3-3 best suits the players we have a bit daft tbh

The players we have include 4 strikers, plus Kagawa, Nani and Young who would all be competing for the front 3 positions, whether that includes the front of a diamond or not.

4-3-3 doesn't best suit the players we have any more than any other formation does. And that's without even dissecting the blatant flaw in any notion of allowing Kagawa to dictate the play in an area of the field Rooney is always going to drift into whether he's supposed to or not, and the type of football that scenario has almost programmed the team to play.

4-4-2 suits the strikers and wingers more than the midfielders

4-3-3 suits the midfielders more than the strikers and wingers

The defence doesn't appear to benefit from either formation at the moment...

Originally Posted by Barracuda

4-4-2 suits the strikers and wingers more than the midfielders

4-3-3 suits the midfielders more than the strikers and wingers

The defence doesn't appear to benefit from either formation at the moment...

Yep, the defence is in bits.

Originally Posted by borsuk

it could be. or it could be as simple as anderson and rafael having a common language.

Don't think so, like someone else mentioned it was used against Newcastle, too. Neither of them say a word anyway. Most of our team says £#%&! all, to be honest.

It's definitely to make us more intricate but it needs to be given a chance