Fletcher Crisis Talks

Fletcher has put in some great performances, the one that stands out is undoubtedly Roma, which I thought was world class, but there have been a number of other very good ones in big matches.

Unfortunately he just doesn't seem capable of performing at that kind of level on a consistent basis. One week he'll play Arsenal and look fantastic, the next he'll play some no-mark team and look average at best.

Very strange player.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

I am.

He was everywhere, his covering allowed for Ronaldo's freedom, he pressed them endlessly, was a real authority in midfield (bar the first cross field into touch pass), and supported the attack with his forward runs superbly, was refreshing to see us having a midfield player breaking into the box in Europe again.

Did more than a ''good job''

And much the same against Milan.

He rose to the occasion and has improved since a little more faith has been shown in him.
He had a good season last year. He never let us down and chipped in with good performances and goals.

Didn't see your post JC.

Pretty much everything you say there is valid. The only thing is that we are yet to find out if Pique and Gibson can cut it. It's all very well suggesting they are better, but are they? This is based on games outside of the first team. In the first team, they may struggle. If they do and we've sold Fletcher and O'Shea (who although lacking, we know can do a job for us) then we're in the shit.

O'Shea's contribution is minimal. I personally don't see what job he does apart from being there - this sounds very harsh - he seems a nice enough person but we have to be ruthless. I can't see them being any worse, can you? We know they have the technique. Gibson looked completely unfazed in pre-season, in fact his problem is that its so easy for him he doesn't play at his best. Pique has played in big matches in Spain last year, I can't see him being fazed either. Evans as we all know has slotted in brilliantly whereever he has gone. Simpson made a naieve mistake in pre-season, but Brown with all his ''experience'' makes mistakes as well and is found out by a decent enough winger.

My point is that I don't see the need to make these sorts of changes just yet. There's enough games in a season to give youngsters a chance and fringe players appearances.

The problem is these young players careers. If they have to play games in the reserves to maintain fitness for the odd game (thats what it sounds like) then its pointless. They won't progress.

You have to think of the academy players who would have stepped up into the reserves this season also. Their development is hindered also. And for what? So O'Shea and Brown etc can get endless chances? Nicky Butt and Phil Neville were sold when their time was up, and rightly so. Why do these players get special treatment?

As I said before, we've gone with the ''experienced'' players so far. We've dropped points. And those dropped points have all been for nothing, as apart from Nani, none of our prospects have got any experience from them whatsoever.

It's when Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea and co are unquestionably picked ahead of the kids regardless of form, fitness and positioning that it becomes a problem.

Isn't that what is happening now? Do these players' current form warrant their current constant inclusion in the squad?

Fletcher has put in some great performances, the one that stands out is undoubtedly Roma, which I thought was world class, but there have been a number of other very good ones in big matches.

Unfortunately he just doesn't seem capable of performing at that kind of level on a consistent basis. One week he'll play Arsenal and look fantastic, the next he'll play some no-mark team and look average at best.

Very strange player.

I don't think Fergie's odd idea to try and play him as a winger for a period helped.

He came into that season off the back of one where the team had enjoyed its best side with him playing central midfield, culminating in a performance against Arsenal in the cup final where, along with Ronaldo & Rooney he was arguably our best player.

Then the next season he's shafted out onto the wing. He can't beat a man, the fans start to get on his back, his passing turns to shit and he goes into a shell. He didn't try any adventurous passes, everything became sideways, or just to make sure he didn't lose possession. What had looked a promising player suddenly turned into one that couldn't pass, was lightweight and completely unambitious in his play. Then he was dropped from the squad totally I think. At the start of last season, bar Boro & Charlton it was the same sort of thing. The Newcastle game stands out in particular, he was abysmal in the first half, nothing to contribute whatsoever, to the extent that Scholes started having to lob the ball over his head to someone else.

It was only towards the end of last season that he came out of his shell, Fergie finally started playing him ahead of O'Shea in midfield and he started looking like his old self again. He took more responsibility to play the more adventurous passes himself and didn't hide. His work rate was always fantastic, and once he'd come out of his shell, a performance like his against Roma was always coming. It was just the natural progression of a player who'd been standing still or even gone backwards for one and a half seasons.

Now he's been dropped for O'Shea again, - for no real reason -doesn't do wonders for your confidence

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

Didn't see your post JC.



O'Shea's contribution is minimal. I personally don't see what job he does apart from being there - this sounds very harsh - he seems a nice enough person but we have to be ruthless. I can't see them being any worse, can you? We know they have the technique. Gibson looked completely unfazed in pre-season, in fact his problem is that its so easy for him he doesn't play at his best. Pique has played in big matches in Spain last year, I can't see him being fazed either. Evans as we all know has slotted in brilliantly whereever he has gone. Simpson made a naieve mistake in pre-season, but Brown with all his ''experience'' makes mistakes as well and is found out by a decent enough winger.



The problem is these young players careers. If they have to play games in the reserves to maintain fitness for the odd game (thats what it sounds like) then its pointless. They won't progress.

You have to think of the academy players who would have stepped up into the reserves this season also. Their development is hindered also. And for what? So O'Shea and Brown etc can get endless chances? Nicky Butt and Phil Neville were sold when their time was up, and rightly so. Why do these players get special treatment?

As I said before, we've gone with the ''experienced'' players so far. We've dropped points. And those dropped points have all been for nothing, as apart from Nani, none of our prospects have got any experience from them whatsoever.



Isn't that what is happening now? Do these players' current form warrant their current constant inclusion in the squad?

Yes it is, this is why I'm worried and I do think we need a change of emphasis. I just don't think it requires the ruthless overhaul that many are proposing.

Re your other points, I still think these lads are able to develop in the reserves and by training regularly with the squad and, ofcourse, making a handful of appearances.
As long as there's natural progression and no obvious backwards steps for them, then time is on their side.
Just being part of the squad and training regularly will help. Going into the reserves isn't that bad for them. Fletcher, Silvestre. Smith etc always play a fair few reserve games and step up into the first team a few days later. NOt a big problem.
4 or 5 Carling Cup appearances. 5-10 sub appearances and couple of starts are not bad for players that age trying to break into a club our size. Especially at the first attempt. If the figures were less the following season then that'd be a concern.

I don't want to get too into the specifics of each players game too much, but O'Shea does more than just 'being there' in fairness to him.
Season before last he showed that he can hold the midfield pretty well during that long spell he spent with Giggs as the advanced central player. He also makes better forward runs than he's given credit for and has now, infamously, chipped in with a few goals.

Now, I'm not saying Gibson and co can't do a better job. Maybe they can (to be fair, I haven't seen much of them) We need to find out, but I believe there's enough games to do this and keep everyone happy and we can review the squad again next summer, or even in January.

If the fringe players rack up 30+ appearances a season, then there's no reason the kiddies can't manage 10-15+ which is a healthy amount at this stage as they are intergrated into the squad.

In summary, there's enough games to keep everyone happy whilst safeguarding against voluntarily thinning our squad with the prospect of a long, unpredictable season ahead.
But the kids do need to be shown more faith and rewarded for their patience and willingness to go out on loan than they are getting right now.

Great to see that, when we needed a goal, Campbell was brought on a City. Can't imagine how the lad must've felt when O'Shea went up front against Reading despite Rooney, Saha and Ole being out and Rossi and Smith being sold.
That sort of thing needs to stop because If I was Frazier Campbell I'd be wondering what the hell I had to do to get in the side.

Oh, and well done for offering a reasoned, controlled argument rather than just saying 'he's shit. end of. FACT'.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

I don't think Fergie's odd idea to try and play him as a winger for a period helped.

He came into that season off the back of one where the team had enjoyed its best side with him playing central midfield, culminating in a performance against Arsenal in the cup final where, along with Ronaldo & Rooney he was arguably our best player.

Then the next season he's shafted out onto the wing. He can't beat a man, the fans start to get on his back, his passing turns to shit and he goes into a shell. He didn't try any adventurous passes, everything became sideways, or just to make sure he didn't lose possession. What had looked a promising player suddenly turned into one that couldn't pass, was lightweight and completely unambitious in his play. Then he was dropped from the squad totally I think. At the start of last season, bar Boro & Charlton it was the same sort of thing. The Newcastle game stands out in particular, he was abysmal in the first half, nothing to contribute whatsoever, to the extent that Scholes started having to lob the ball over his head to someone else.

It was only towards the end of last season that he came out of his shell, Fergie finally started playing him ahead of O'Shea in midfield and he started looking like his old self again. He took more responsibility to play the more adventurous passes himself and didn't hide. His work rate was always fantastic, and once he'd come out of his shell, a performance like his against Roma was always coming. It was just the natural progression of a player who'd been standing still or even gone backwards for one and a half seasons.

Now he's been dropped for O'Shea again, - for no real reason -doesn't do wonders for your confidence

Good assessment of Big Dazza.

Re your other points, I still think these lads are able to develop in the reserves and by training regularly with the squad and, ofcourse, making a handful of appearances.
As long as there's natural progression and no obvious backwards steps for them, then time is on their side.
Just being part of the squad and training regularly will help. Going into the reserves isn't that bad for them. Fletcher, Silvestre. Smith etc always play a fair few reserve games and step up into the first team a few days later. NOt a big problem.
4 or 5 Carling Cup appearances. 5-10 sub appearances and couple of starts are not bad for players that age trying to break into a club our size. Especially at the first attempt. If the figures were less the following season then that'd be a concern.

But these players are coming back from spells where they've had regular first team football.

People like Simpson & Evans were a crucial part in Sunderland coming up, Pique's been playing against the likes of Barcelona & Real Madrid. To go back in the reserves is a step backwards. It can't be too heartening watching people playing in the first team or on the bench who can't even do basics well like control and pass a ball under pressure.

I don't want to get too into the specifics of each players game too much, but O'Shea does more than just 'being there' in fairness to him.
Season before last he showed that he can hold the midfield pretty well during that long spell he spent with Giggs as the advanced central player. He also makes better forward runs than he's given credit for and has now, infamously, chipped in with a few goals.

We did well then but we were essentially just securing second place, the pace and power of Rooney, Saha, Ronaldo was enough to beat most teams, until we came up against Chelsea and the midfield was ripped apart.

It was painfully obvious that when these players came in for the injured ones at the back end of last season, our game dropped. It was put down to tiredness but I think the drop in ability with the incoming players was a big part of that. Yet they are still perservered with. Its very frustrating to watch, and especially when we are dropping points. Like I said, the likes of Butt & Neville were moved on when these guys were unproven, so why isn't the same happening now. Instead its a phenomenal talent like Rossi who's been forced to leave while Giggs performs inconsistently in a role that Rossi would have slotted right into

Oh, and well done for offering a reasoned, controlled argument rather than just saying 'he's shit. end of. FACT'.

I like O'Shea, seems a nice enough person and everything + the goals last year, but it annoys me to see what he's become since he looked so promising in his first season. I actually thought then that he'd end up in midfield and looked forward to him playing there, but then he was more dynamic, urgent, and ability and his passing was very good. What has happened to him??! Even now you'll see a fleeting glimpse of a turn or bit of skill to get away from a marker like Zidane, then he'll boot it into touch

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

In 2018, when Fletcher retires from Uniteds bench.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

Read my posts, you condescending poo!

see the quote above?

you say they "might" get oppurtunities. but as you see shea and fletcher are not getting too much first team activities.

that will further reduce once saha, ole, ronaldo, rooney, anderson, neville comeback.

it will be almost 0 in premiership ( starts )

but you need to give them matches. so fergie will play them in carling cup matches, insignificanct champions league matches ensuring gibson, pique and others not getting chances there also.

even if they get chances, invariably they play with shit players like tweety, brown, o shea, fletcher and co and look average. and people call them shit.

do you get my point?

arsenal don't bring through young talent just like that. they ship out older players, give chances to young even though it brings risks with it. wenger hasn't had net profit in market just like that.

Originally Posted by sharath

see the quote above?

you say they "might" get oppurtunities. but as you see shea and fletcher are not getting too much first team activities.

that will further reduce once saha, ole, ronaldo, rooney, anderson, neville comeback.

it will be almost 0 in premiership ( starts )

but you need to give them matches. so fergie will play them in carling cup matches, insignificanct champions league matches ensuring gibson, pique and others not getting chances there also.

even if they get chances, invariably they play with shit players like tweety, brown, o shea, fletcher and co and look average. and people call them shit.

do you get my point?

arsenal don't bring through young talent just like that. they ship out older players, give chances to young even though it brings risks with it. wenger hasn't had net profit in market just like that.

Ease down fella, we basically agree, I was only japing.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

I don't think Fergie's odd idea to try and play him as a winger for a period helped.

He came into that season off the back of one where the team had enjoyed its best side with him playing central midfield, culminating in a performance against Arsenal in the cup final where, along with Ronaldo & Rooney he was arguably our best player.

Then the next season he's shafted out onto the wing. He can't beat a man, the fans start to get on his back, his passing turns to shit and he goes into a shell. He didn't try any adventurous passes, everything became sideways, or just to make sure he didn't lose possession. What had looked a promising player suddenly turned into one that couldn't pass, was lightweight and completely unambitious in his play. Then he was dropped from the squad totally I think. At the start of last season, bar Boro & Charlton it was the same sort of thing. The Newcastle game stands out in particular, he was abysmal in the first half, nothing to contribute whatsoever, to the extent that Scholes started having to lob the ball over his head to someone else.

It was only towards the end of last season that he came out of his shell, Fergie finally started playing him ahead of O'Shea in midfield and he started looking like his old self again. He took more responsibility to play the more adventurous passes himself and didn't hide. His work rate was always fantastic, and once he'd come out of his shell, a performance like his against Roma was always coming. It was just the natural progression of a player who'd been standing still or even gone backwards for one and a half seasons.

Now he's been dropped for O'Shea again, - for no real reason -doesn't do wonders for your confidence

although you make some decent comments...

when you play out of position there is no reason why your passing goes shit. I have seen far more wingers out of depth who just play it simple and look decent. he doesn't even do that.

And far all your look at roma, arsenal matches you can get even more matches where he has played at centre midfield against average opposition and played shit.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Ease down fella, we basically agree, I was only japing.

it wasn't aimed at you. just used your quote to point our to JC ( sarcastically )

Why is O'Shea getting so much love in this thread? Let's face it, he's pretty awful. Is it because he scored from two yards out against Liverpool?

even if they get chances, invariably they play with shit players like tweety, brown, o shea, fletcher and co and look average. and people call them shit.

Like David jones last year, only got to play with players coming back form injury who just hoofed it and bypassed the midfield.

when you play out of position there is no reason why your passing goes shit. I have seen far more wingers out of depth who just play it simple and look decent. he doesn't even do that.

In that position you're supposed to be an outlet. He doesn't really have any attributes to perform that role. No great pace, no dribbling, and no Beckham like crossing to compensate.

And far all your look at roma, arsenal matches you can get even more matches where he has played at centre midfield against average opposition and played shit.

See my last post.

Originally Posted by TreeFiddy

Why is O'Shea getting so much love in this thread? Let's face it, he's pretty awful. Is it because he scored from two yards out against Liverpool?

Because he's Oirish, and the Oirish love to have one of their in the team to give them an excuse for wearing Jester Hats and bringing "Tricolours" into the ground..... And yes, O'Shea is no good. Plenty of skill but lacks any kind of aggression or fight.

At least TSP for all his failings puts the effort in, and I reckon with a bit of coaching could be a half-decent rightback.

Originally Posted by Enjoying Insanity

Because he's Oirish, and the Oirish love to have one of their in the team to give them an excuse for wearing Jester Hats and bringing "Tricolours" into the ground..... And yes, O'Shea is no good. Plenty of skill but lacks any kind of aggression or fight.

At least TSP for all his failings puts the effort in, and I reckon with a bit of coaching could be a half-decent rightback.

lol at enjoying insanity, either a complete £#%&!wit or a very poor wind up merchant, i cannot decide, mind you i am edging towards him being a complete £#%&!wit.

Originally Posted by rebelcountyred

lol at enjoying insanity, either a complete £#%&!wit or a very poor wind up merchant, i cannot decide, mind you i am edging towards him being a complete £#%&!wit.

I'm sure you'll be there at the Sunderland game with your United/Sunderland Keano/Fergie/Quinno scarf, jester hat in hand along with the rest of your tarmac-laying @#%&!wits.......

O'Shea is gash and you only like him because he is Oirish. Face facts.

If Gerry Adams was playing in midfield for United he'd be your favourite player......

[SIZE="7"]SAVE
DAZZA

Originally Posted by tatty

Tbh I know little of Pique beyond what is written on here.

For all jos faults (and he has many) the one thing he can do is plug 3 or 4 gaps in an emergency leaving extra places on the bench.

If Pique has got the same versatility and is a better player then fine, bin jos.

I watched Pique play in four games for Spain in the U20s world cup this summer and i can tell you that skill, speed and distribution wise he is already ahead of O'shea, but he's lacking in positional sense and is simply doesnt have the experience yet for big games. O'shea is actually a very smart player positionally and so although he's not exactly the most dynamic player he does get himself in the right places on the park which is important even if you dont see that much of the ball.

I hope Pique gets a run out this year because i think he might surprise a few people, he's improved a fair bit, he was a bit of a boy when he first came to united but he's maturing and is looking a lot stronger.

Originally Posted by Enjoying Insanity

I'm sure you'll be there at the Sunderland game with your United/Sunderland Keano/Fergie/Quinno scarf, jester hat in hand along with the rest of your tarmac-laying @#%&!wits.......

O'Shea is gash and you only like him because he is Oirish. Face facts.

If Gerry Adams was playing in midfield for United he'd be your favourite player......

ah look how original you are, all the stereotypes there, tarmac, jester hats, ira supporting, oh and the funny way you mispell the word irish, oirish lol.
mind you i'd like you to find a post in this thread where i praised oshea, wouldn't go quite as far as to say he is gash mind, you need players like oshea unless you have plenty of players better than him, it's a squad based game.

Originally Posted by Lou_Macari_Chippy

I watched Pique play in four games for Spain in the U20s world cup this summer and i can tell you that skill, speed and distribution wise he is already ahead of O'shea, but he's lacking in positional sense and is simply doesnt have the experience yet for big games. O'shea is actually a very smart player positionally and so although he's not exactly the most dynamic player he does get himself in the right places on the park which is important even if you dont see that much of the ball.

I hope Pique gets a run out this year because i think he might surprise a few people, he's improved a fair bit, he was a bit of a boy when he first came to united but he's maturing and is looking a lot stronger.

I think that the fact that we turned down a sizeable bid for pique speaks volumes for how highly regarded he is, agree with you totally about him just needing some cameos for the first team to really bed him into the side.