OFFICIAL:Manchester United v Southampton|Premier League|30.12.2017|17.30|BT Sports

What’s happening now is a mirror image of what happened last year, except slightly later after a slightly better start. Missed chances, draws, everyone around us in better form.

Originally Posted by irk

Faint praise.

Being slightly less ineffectual than an ineffectual flop is some achievement i suppose.

We won a title that year with Kagawa, Cleverley, Evans all playing significant minutes.

We need our supposed big players, Pogba, Matic, Jones and Lukaku to start showing some leadership, bring the rest with them.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

We won a title that year with Kagawa, Cleverley, Evans all playing significant minutes.

We need our supposed big players, Pogba, Matic, Jones and Lukaku to start showing some leadership, bring the rest with them.

Every great team had it’s support staff mate. The problem comes when you start to imagine the support staff were part of the reason you won it; they weren’t. There are winners, difference makers, and the people who help them win. It’s too one dimensional to imagine that Cleverley can become Scholes just because they were in the same squad. Throb used to make that argument.

Welbeck was in that squad too. What’s he done since he was binned off?

I’m not sure any of us were really ready for the devastating decline losing all those perennial winners plus Fergie in two short seasons would cause.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

We won a title that year with Kagawa, Cleverley, Evans all playing significant minutes.

We need our supposed big players, Pogba, Matic, Jones and Lukaku to start showing some leadership, bring the rest with them.

It’s not going to happen.

We also had evra, vidic, ferdinand, carrick, giggs, scholes, rooney, van persie etc

And the football, if I remember rightly was £#%&!ing horrific and overly reliant on rvp being awesome.

Originally Posted by utd99

Every great team had it’s support staff mate. The problem comes when you start to imagine the support staff were part of the reason you won it; they weren’t. There are winners, difference makers, and the people who help them win. It’s too one dimensional to imagine that Cleverley can become Scholes just because they were in the same squad. Throb used to make that argument.

Welbeck was in that squad too. What’s he done since he was binned off?

I’m not sure any of us were really ready for the devastating decline losing all those perennial winners plus Fergie in two short seasons would cause.

The key figures that year were De Gea, Carrick Rafael, Rio and Van Persie. Those were the ones lifting the level of the rest, taking pressure away. The rest were filling in, doing a solid job, having their great moments occasionally.

It is the lack of leadership that you always bring up. Who are our best performing players this season? De Gea has been good, Matic started well but has slowed down, after that it is the likes of Lingard, Young, Bloody Smalling

Originally Posted by irk

And the football, if I remember rightly was f***ing horrific and overly reliant on rvp being awesome.

you don't remember right you £#%&!ing idiot

Originally Posted by utd99

It’s possible that the pressure he used to put on players to evoke a response, these days, with these players, just breaks them. This trend towards fragile psyches in all society, but football specifically, is undeniable. Maybe his methods just don’t work anymore.

Or to be more precise, maybe he's not as good at executing them anymore.

Riccers talked about the snowflake modern footballers, but a manager renowned for having a great bond with his players, almost friendship-like, would surely be ideal for the supposed soft modern footballer. So why is he unable to re-establish those connections?

Personally, I think that he's managed that better when he's been able to play the underdog card. John Terry mentioned it the other day: Mourinho arrived at Chelsea, took the "everyone hates me/us" momentum after the Abramovich takeover and used it to galvanise the players. Even with the biggest budget, they were outsiders in many ways.

At Inter the Serie A title was easy, as it had been for Mancini, but a club that has consistently underachieved in Europe was ripe for him to stir the emotion of the outsider. Nobody gave them a chance against Barca; he could use that.

Remember that when he first came back to Chelsea he talked endlessly about "the little horse" and convinced the players that they were outsiders. Maybe that worked for a year. Maybe after Barca won the CL again at Wembley it worked for a year in Madrid.

But I wonder if it really works when the expectation is there to be the best. It fell apart at Madrid amidst Mourinho trying to provoke that anger in his players through any means. They grew tired of it. Madrid expect to be superior, not rely on sense of injustice.

Maybe it's similar here. Whatever we think of the players, I don't think they are work-shy. They all want to do well. But the defeatist attitude; the desire to create tension where there isn't any; the need to make examples out of easy targets in the dressing room. I don't know if that works at a club who have always just expected to be the best by just being better, not through rage and indignation.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Or to be more precise, maybe he's not as good at executing them anymore.

Riccers talked about the snowflake modern footballers, but a manager renowned for having a great bond with his players, almost friendship-like, would surely be ideal for the supposed soft modern footballer. So why is he unable to re-establish those connections?

Personally, I think that he's managed that better when he's been able to play the underdog card. John Terry mentioned it the other day: Mourinho arrived at Chelsea, took the "everyone hates me/us" momentum after the Abramovich takeover and used it to galvanise the players. Even with the biggest budget, they were outsiders in many ways.

At Inter the Serie A title was easy, as it had been for Mancini, but a club that has consistently underachieved in Europe was ripe for him to stir the emotion of the outsider. Nobody gave them a chance against Barca; he could use that.

Remember that when he first came back to Chelsea he talked endlessly about "the little horse" and convinced the players that they were outsiders. Maybe that worked for a year. Maybe after Barca won the CL again at Wembley it worked for a year in Madrid.

But I wonder if it really works when the expectation is there to be the best. It fell apart at Madrid amidst Mourinho trying to provoke that anger in his players through any means. They grew tired of it. Madrid expect to be superior, not rely on sense of injustice.

Maybe it's similar here. Whatever we think of the players, I don't think they are work-shy. They all want to do well. But the defeatist attitude; the desire to create tension where there isn't any; the need to make examples out of easy targets in the dressing room. I don't know if that works at a club who have always just expected to be the best by just being better, not through rage and indignation.

Hard to disagree with any of that.

Right Now, he looks like a moping manager with a moping team. Whatever he's doing, it isn't working and he's got 4 months to turn it around.

Resign you @#%&! just £#%&! off with you’re merry men to whatever club will have u.

Originally Posted by puressence

Resign you @#%&! just £#%&! off with you’re merry men to whatever club will have u.

#Bedsheet

Originally Posted by Wez

#Bedsheet

Move Out!

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Hard to disagree with any of that.

Right Now, he looks like a moping manager with a moping team. Whatever he's doing, it isn't working and he's got 4 months to turn it around.

it might not even be that long.

another month or two of this sort of shit and i can see him just £#%&!ing it off.

I have no idea where that leaves us as a club.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

it might not even be that long.

another month or two of this sort of shit and i can see him just f***ing it off.

I have no idea where that leaves us as a club.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

it might not even be that long.

another month or two of this sort of shit and i can see him just £#%&!ing it off.

I have no idea where that leaves us as a club.

Remember Souness at Liverpool? We'll appoint Giggs and that's where we'll be.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

it might not even be that long.

another month or two of this sort of shit and i can see him just f***ing it off.

I have no idea where that leaves us as a club.

Honestly might be a good thing.

Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that, but surely one day someone is going to come in, have a 3/4/5 year plan build the team around our best outfield player, restore the club to the traditions of Ferguson years with width, workrate, creatively and restore some pride in the place again.

For all the talk of money spent and not, the traditions of Ferguson’s football are nowhere near this and any of the managers since he retired and that doesn’t cost a penny to put in place.

Originally Posted by That Boy Ronaldo!

Honestly might be a good thing.

Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that, but surely one day someone is going to come in, have a 3/4/5 year plan build the team around our best outfield player, restore the club to the traditions of Ferguson years with width, workrate, creatively and restore some pride in the place again.

For all the talk of money spent and not, the traditions of Ferguson’s football are nowhere near this and any of the managers since he retired and that doesn’t cost a penny to put in place.

Whats the point in having a 4 year plan when less than 2 years in people are screaming for your head. There has been a marked improvement in each of Joes's 2 seasons compared to the previous dross under LVG & that other @#%&!.
Fergie left behind an ageing team that needed a slow rebuild. The actions of the next 2 managers made the necessary rebuild a lot harder than it needed to be. Jose has made mistakes. MickyT , & Lindelof who whilst not a bad player, was an unnecessary signing in a position we already had a lot more depth than in others,
Tried asking myself which positions need the most urgent recruitment & other than central defence & Goalkeeper its every position

Originally Posted by That Boy Ronaldo!

Honestly might be a good thing.

Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that, but surely one day someone is going to come in, have a 3/4/5 year plan build the team around our best outfield player, restore the club to the traditions of Ferguson years with width, workrate, creatively and restore some pride in the place again.

For all the talk of money spent and not, the traditions of Ferguson’s football are nowhere near this and any of the managers since he retired and that doesn’t cost a penny to put in place.

I get you, but do United need to cling to Ferguson's football? As much as I love the man, his football wasn't very good to watch for several years before he left. The game has moved on. Agree with the rest of your post, but fans would hardly be complaining if they were watching Guardiola or Klopp football atm. Even when Fergie was still here, many felt the football needed modernising.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I get you, but do United need to cling to Ferguson's football?. As much as I love the man, his football wasn't very good to watch for several years before he left. The game has moved on. Agree with the rest of your post, but fans would hardly be complaining if they were watching Guardiola or Klopp football atm. Even when Fergie was still here, many felt the football needed modernising.

Guardiola & Klopp weren't available but I do agree with the rest. A lot of rose tinted glasses around when it comes to the football we played in the last few seasons under SAF. It was for the main part dour & gritty & all about winning at any cost . We had the players with the mentality to do that then.

Originally Posted by Kangared

Guardiola & Klopp weren't available but I do agree with the rest. A lot of rose tinted glasses around when it comes to the football we played in the last few seasons under SAF. It was for the main part dour & gritty & all about winning at any cost . We had the players with the mentality to do that then.

Point was more that modern football approaches are the way to go, rather than yearning for "Ferguson football"

I suspect this will be the road we will go down after Mourinho. And is why I think letting him spend another £200m on players unsuited to it will only £#%&! us over more down the line. Mou will buy Perisic, some brute for left-back and add more industry and power, then he will storm off somewhere and United will end up hiring a mini Pep type who will tear it all down again

As Tibs says (and I obviously disagree strongly with him about LvG) the idea in 2016 should have been continued. The next manager needed to be someone who was going to develop Rashford and Martial and take the basis of LvG's early coaching and bring it on.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I get you, but do United need to cling to Ferguson's football? As much as I love the man, his football wasn't very good to watch for several years before he left. The game has moved on. Agree with the rest of your post, but fans would hardly be complaining if they were watching Guardiola or Klopp football atm. Even when Fergie was still here, many felt the football needed modernising.

Thats who we are! (We’ll we were until your man took charge)

Width, Attacking fullbacks, movement, fast thinking forwards! Take a risk, have a go. It’s what the support was brought up on, it’s what made the club one of the biggest in the world.

We’re in limbo due to two shocking management appointments and some dreadful transfer buisness. But Mou has been here 18 months and we still don’t look anywhere near what the club is about.