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Unread 03-03-2018, 03:45 PM
utd99
 
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Originally Posted by dunk
Going off Utd99's vision of how it should be, we'd never have a youth player make it unless they were Messi.

The only way to build a team is to put young players together and allow them to grow into their roles, to make the mistakes, play through poor form occasionally and learn. You can't know if a player is going to make it after 1 great performance any more than you can after 1 shit performance. One of United's problems as it stands is that players aren't getting this opportunity, and they are all terrified of making a mistake.
I mean, clearly that’s not what I’m saying, is it? I’m not sure why you feel the need to constantly mis-represent someone else’s position to reinforce your own. Disagreeing is not against the rules, and it doesn’t always have to be about point scoring.

Plenty of players who came through the ranks -and weren’t Scholes and Giggs quality- have contributed to our success over the years. It’s not about fielding only that level of player, that woldn’t be realistic; it’s about not lowering your standards in the search for that level of player. You can’t be happy with mediocrity or that’s what you become. There’s a difference.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 03:56 PM
believe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
Going off Utd99's vision of how it should be, we'd never have a youth player make it unless they were Messi.

The only way to build a team is to put young players together and allow them to grow into their roles, to make the mistakes, play through poor form occasionally and learn. You can't know if a player is going to make it after 1 great performance any more than you can after 1 shit performance. One of United's problems as it stands is that players aren't getting this opportunity, and they are all terrified of making a mistake.
Nonsense. We’ve built teams previously on youth players who are actually good enough to make the grade. One of our biggest downfalls the last ten years is hoping that it might happen again. Lingard, for all is efforts, is simply not good enough to make a good united team into a great one.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:01 PM
dunk
 
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Originally Posted by utd99
I mean, clearly that’s not what I’m saying, is it? I’m not sure why you feel the need to constantly mis-represent someone else’s position to reinforce your own. Disagreeing is not against the rules, and it doesn’t always have to be about point scoring.

Plenty of players who came through the ranks -and weren’t Scholes and Giggs quality- have contributed to our success over the years. It’s not about fielding only that level of player, that woldn’t be realistic; it’s about not lowering your standards in the search for that level of player. You can’t be happy with mediocrity or that’s what you become. There’s a difference.
Certainly seems to be. You honestly think Lingard is the problem and isn't as good as Richardson, Gibson, O'Shea, Fletcher etc. at the same age? I've also seen you giving it Rashford at times for not being good enough this season. Your opinion seems to be that if they aren't one of the best around in their position they shouldn't be in the United side, which is fair enough, but you're not going to bring many players through with that requirement.

The problem is the players we have purchased as first teamers that clearly aren't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by believe
Nonsense. We’ve built teams previously on youth players who are actually good enough to make the grade. One of our biggest downfalls the last ten years is hoping that it might happen again. Lingard, for all is efforts, is simply not good enough to make a good united team into a great one.
Again, he doesn't have to be, only about 3 players we've brought through have been; Scholes, Giggs and Beckham. The rest were average to very good and did an excellent job. It's the players we've signed that they have played with that truly raised the bar.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:12 PM
Ethers
 
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It’s simple economics that’s it’s preferable to have a youth player who cost nothing to an expensive purchase, if they’re both of the same standard.

And Lingard is actually better than the shite we’ve bought anyway
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:18 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Originally Posted by utd99
I think it’s less about the cost and more about United’s relationship with homegrowns over the years. We are mired in the history of the Babes and the Co92, and producing our own is the fabric of the club; rightly so imo. The problem is that sometimes we want it so badly that we make allowances we shouldn’t.

My feeling is that all any young player can ask for is a chance to show what they’ve got. The onus is not on United to prove they’re good enough, it’s on the player himself. We shouldn’t adjust our standards to accomodate a certain type of player, they need to raise theirs to meet our exacting ones.



The two issues are not mutually exclusive. Bought or produced, it’s all about quality. Pulling on that shirt should be the equaliser.
Depends on what you qualify as giving them a chance. For me the club and the player both have a duty to make it work. You're either committed to developing young players or you're not, because to be committed means making allowances and showing some patience.

Lingard has become a good squad player and seems a positive element in the dressing room, which can be vital in helping others adapt. He's been worth the perseverance, from those many loans under Fergie and then the big push LvG gave him, it's proved worthwhile.

I'd like to see him put it together every single week and become a real star, but the least we have now is a very useful player.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:19 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
Certainly seems to be. You honestly think Lingard is the problem and isn't as good as Richardson, Gibson, O'Shea, Fletcher etc. at the same age? I've also seen you giving it Rashford at times for not being good enough this season. Your opinion seems to be that if they aren't one of the best around in their position they shouldn't be in the United side, which is fair enough, but you're not going to bring many players through with that requirement.
Because there’s a difference between understanding and excusing. We all understand that young players are not the finished article yet. They’ll make mistakes and poor decisions while they’re learning their trade; however learning their trade also means improving on the job.

Rashford has played well over 100 senior games for club and country now; at what point is it ok to start evaluating his progress or lack of? Because listening to you and Siders, it seems that time is never.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:19 PM
Tiberian
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
The problem is the players we have purchased as first teamers that clearly aren't good enough.



Again, he doesn't have to be, only about 3 players we've brought through have been; Scholes, Giggs and Beckham. The rest were average to very good and did an excellent job. It's the players we've signed that they have played with that truly raised the bar.
Agree with this take. We need the guys who were bought to be the leaders and spine of the team to perform, that is Lukaku, Matic, Pogba, Bailly, De Gea, Sanchez now. The excellence of our top players allowed the likes of O'Shea, Phil Neville, even good players like Butt and Brown to perform at a higher level, but they were mostly support players.

I would be ok with people jumping on the likes of Lingard, Smalling, Jones if the others performed and they let us down but too often they become the excuse for the non showing of our so called top players.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:22 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Depends on what you qualify as giving them a chance. For me the club and the player both have a duty to make it work. You're either committed to developing young players or you're not, because to be committed means making allowances and showing some patience.

Lingard has become a good squad player and seems a positive element in the dressing room, which can be vital in helping others adapt. He's been worth the perseverance, from those many loans under Fergie and then the big push LvG gave him, it's proved worthwhile.

I'd like to see him put it together every single week and become a real star, but the least we have now is a very useful player.
You can be committed to developing young players and it still might not work. That’s the nature of young players, and shouldn’t be used as proof positive that you’re not interested in them. You can try, but you can’t “make” a player good enough mate.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:24 PM
dunk
 
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Originally Posted by utd99
Because there’s a difference between understanding and excusing. We all understand that young players are not the finished article yet. They’ll make mistakes and poor decisions while they’re learning their trade; however learning their trade also means improving on the job.

Rashford has played well over 100 senior games for club and country now; at what point is it ok to start evaluating his progress or lack of? Because listening to you and Siders, it seems that time is never.
Depends whether you’re judging their progress or their form, really.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:24 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
Agree with this take. We need the guys who were bought to be the leaders and spine of the team to perform, that is Lukaku, Matic, Pogba, Bailly, De Gea, Sanchez now. The excellence of our top players allowed the likes of O'Shea, Phil Neville, even good players like Butt and Brown to perform at a higher level, but they were mostly support players.

I would be ok with people jumping on the likes of Lingard, Smalling, Jones if the others performed and they let us down but too often they become the excuse for the non showing of our so called top players.
Ok, but at what point does it just become a game of hot potato? I’m skeptical of any argument that is, in essense, don’t look here, look there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunk
Depends whether you’re judging their progress or their form, really.
Fair enough. But even a balanced critique of Rashford’s progress is met with scorn on here. It’s madness.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:28 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
You can be committed to developing young players and it still might not work. That’s the nature of young players, and shouldn’t be used as proof positive that you’re not interested in them. You can try, but you can’t “make” a player good enough mate.
Obviously, but for me the more pertinent point is that you cannot have commitment to young players without sacrificing something as a club. They need time, patience and faith. From your posts on Rashford I always get the impression that you think it's all down to the player and there's little room for error or stages of frustration, which is the real nature of young players.

Lingard is lucky he got that faith; at many other clubs he wouldn't have. But we are benefiting now.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:38 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Obviously, but for me the more pertinent point is that you cannot have commitment to young players without sacrificing something as a club. They need time, patience and faith. From your posts on Rashford I always get the impression that you think it's all down to the player and there's little room for error or stages of frustration, which is the real nature of young players.

Lingard is lucky he got that faith; at many other clubs he wouldn't have. But we are benefiting now.
Let’s give it some time eh? He’s still as likely to beg the question of whether he was actually playing as he is to score the winner against Chelsea.

As far as Rashford goes, I just want to see improvement. Why is that such a tough ask? Is he still making the same mistakes? Is he in the team on merit or idealism? Are we as confident that he’ll make it now as when he first burst on the scene? These are legitimate questions mate, because in far too many games this season MR seems to have regressed rather than progressed.

And there’s only so much any manager can do too. How do you give Anthony Martial desire? How?
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:42 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Let’s give it some time eh? He’s still as likely to beg the question of whether he was actually playing as he is to score the winner against Chelsea.

As far as Rashford goes, I just want to see improvement. Why is that such a tough ask? Is he still making the same mistakes? Is he in the team on merit or idealism? Are we as confident that he’ll make it now as when he first burst on the scene? These are legitimate questions mate, because in far too many games this season MR seems to have regressed rather than progressed.
Absolutely not. But more because he's a striker who has started three games all season as a striker, rather than lack of talent, application or tendency to develop. This is why I keep making the point about the player needing the same commitment from the club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
And there’s only so much any manager can do too. How do you give Anthony Martial desire? How?
Martial's style and body language now is no different to how it was during his time at Monaco or his first season at United. And it's no different to many other players in similar positions over the years. But he'd be just as likely to ask how he develops without real faith.

16 league starts. Nine goals and five assists. A better goals to minute ratio in the league than Lukaku. So why is he only starting half the games? Is he not doing his part, or are we not showing him enough faith? I'd have him in the side every week; he'd repay that trust imo.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 04:57 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Absolutely not. But more because he's a striker who has started three games all season as a striker, rather than lack of talent, application or tendency to develop. This is why I keep making the point about the player needing the same commitment from the club.
Rashford’s misfortune is that he’s coming through a shit team. That might seem counter intuitive because you’d imagine there’d be more opportunity in a shit team than a good one, but there’s a lot to be said for being allowed to develop in a team that doesn’t need you, per se, and is good enough to cover your weaknesses and support your growth.

Mourinho still needs to win the games that are in front of him mate. Still needs to compete for the trophies that are in front of him. As such, he needs to pick the team best suited for the task now, and draft in players best suited to the task now. As a manager you can’t worry about the future at the expense of the now, or your future self won’t even be in a £#%&!ing job. Supporters can talk about the future all they want, but getting turned over by Huddersfield and Bristol City is never going to be met with ‘ah well, we’re building for the future’, now is it?

Fergie knew. Sow the seeds of the academy by all means, but draft in players like Bruce, McClair, Irwin etc -seasoned pros- now to ensure they have the right environment to come into.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:00 PM
Tiberian
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Ok, but at what point does it just become a game of hot potato? I’m skeptical of any argument that is, in essense, don’t look here, look there.
I am not saying don't look here. Look at everyone, judge everyone fairly. I have never liked the scapegoating of individuals though, the abuse that Smalling and Jones got after Spurs and Newcastle was excessive, 2 games in which our vaunted midfield and attacking players produced nothing.

Perhaps it is hypocritical but I also expect more from our so called top players, highest wage earners. I expect them to be the decisive figures and go easier on the likes of Lingard and Rashford because of different career trajectories.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:03 PM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Martial's style and body language now is no different to how it was during his time at Monaco or his first season at United. And it's no different to many other players in similar positions over the years. But he'd be just as likely to ask how he develops without real faith.

16 league starts. Nine goals and five assists. A better goals to minute ratio in the league than Lukaku. So why is he only starting half the games? Is he not doing his part, or are we not showing him enough faith? I'd have him in the side every week; he'd repay that trust imo.
Sounds like an excuse to me. Things are not perfect so that justifies a mardy attittude? He was garbage against Chelsea, and it’s wasn’t because he was trying hard and it just wasn’t coming off either.

Stats seem to be your go-to method of persuasion, but I’ve always thought stats were a poor substitute for a pair of eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
I am not saying don't look here. Look at everyone, judge everyone fairly. I have never liked the scapegoating of individuals though, the abuse that Smalling and Jones got after Spurs and Newcastle was excessive, 2 games in which our vaunted midfield and attacking players produced nothing.

Perhaps it is hypocritical but I also expect more from our so called top players, highest wage earners. I expect them to be the decisive figures and go easier on the likes of Lingard and Rashford because of different career trajectories.
But surely you see that when you do “look at everyone” people pile in and tell you to look elsewhere. Everyone has their favourites, and players they excuse above others, just like others have their favourite scapegoats. It’s human nature.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:10 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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Young, gifted and black = 99’ers major bug bear...

Strange that....
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:18 PM
Tiberian
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Sounds like an excuse to me. Things are not perfect so that justifies a mardy attittude? He was garbage against Chelsea, and it’s wasn’t because he was trying hard and it just wasn’t coming off either.

Stats seem to be your go-to method of persuasion, but I’ve always thought stats were a poor substitute for a pair of eyes.



But surely you see that when you do “look at everyone” people pile in and tell you to look elsewhere. Everyone has their favourites, and players they excuse above others, just like others have their favourite scapegoats. It’s human nature.
You are right, very few are truly fair and unbiased in their judgements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
Young, gifted and black = 99’ers major bug bear...

Strange that....
Why is this a thing now, the weaponizing of racial insinuations to win internet points?
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:29 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Originally Posted by utd99
Rashford’s misfortune is that he’s coming through a shit team. That might seem counter intuitive because you’d imagine there’d be more opportunity in a shit team than a good one, but there’s a lot to be said for being allowed to develop in a team that doesn’t need you, per se, and is good enough to cover your weaknesses and support your growth.

Mourinho still needs to win the games that are in front of him mate. Still needs to compete for the trophies that are in front of him. As such, he needs to pick the team best suited for the task now, and draft in players best suited to the task now. As a manager you can’t worry about the future at the expense of the now, or your future self won’t even be in a £#%&!ing job. Supporters can talk about the future all they want, but getting turned over by Huddersfield and Bristol City is never going to be met with ‘ah well, we’re building for the future’, now is it?

Fergie knew. Sow the seeds of the academy by all means, but draft in players like Bruce, McClair, Irwin etc -seasoned pros- now to ensure they have the right environment to come into.
Well there we go. So let's not pretend we are committed to youth development then. You can't give a striker three games up front all season, say you're not really bothered about the future and then claim that you're in any way an advocate of developing players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Sounds like an excuse to me. Things are not perfect so that justifies a mardy attittude? He was garbage against Chelsea, and it’s wasn’t because he was trying hard and it just wasn’t coming off either.

Stats seem to be your go-to method of persuasion, but I’ve always thought stats were a poor substitute for a pair of eyes.
We're talking goals here, pal. It's not a major stretch to relate a forward's productivity to his ability to score and create goals.

Martial has the talent, he has been scoring when given the chances. I'm not sure what you feel he has to prove to get more minutes.
 
Unread 03-03-2018, 05:34 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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Originally Posted by Tiberian



Why is this a thing now, the weaponizing of racial insinuations to win internet points?
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