using 20/20 hindsight, what team and tactics woud you have employed against west brom?

Originally Posted by gav81

I don't think we need hindsight.

you do for this thread.

I bet you wish you hadn't said that now, don't you?





obvs, the way west brom would play was totally predictable. not only did mourinho not set out with a plan to deal effectively with a known problem, he didn't even respond in the game. rooney for mkhi, ffs. not special. not special at all.

as for your solution, you can't create space behind the defence for your speedy players if the defence is sitting deep with a 5-man midfield also sitting deep. you draw 0-0 and are ridiculed. soz.

Originally Posted by gav81

I don't think we need hindsight - the problem was the same it's been all season. Mourinho likes to keep the team compact to control the game and give us defensive stability. The result of that is slower build up play and less space all over the pitch. It shuts down the game as any sort of open, attacking, end to end affair - there's almost always ten men behind the ball for each side. The chances we do create are either through a sea of defenders, at point blank range with the keeper or from the ball coming like a pinball in the box (i.e. they are more like half chances). If our team had a Ronaldo, Hazard or Neymar type player to unlock the opposition defence with a moment of magic the system might work in securing results even if not as a spectacle. But lacking that player leads to the poor form we've seen this season (6 wins in 15 home games).

What we need is to play the Fergie way. Taking a risk in leaving more players ahead of the ball and using the full width of the pitch; stretching the game, spreading the play and opening up space. It's not so defensively sound but creates more room for our attacking players to exploit. That's where fast players like Rashford, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Lingard who like to run at and in behind the defence can play to their strength. That's where time and space is created in the area to provide a better quality chance.

When we do that United will get back to the exciting 4-0, 3-2, 4-3, 5-5, 8-2 type scorelines we frequently saw under Fergie. Yes we will also get the odd 6-1 defeat from playing more open but it's worth the trade off. Until then, we can sit back and enjoy the draws.

Hear what you're saying pal but Fergie is gone. There aren't any others, otherwise everybody would have one. Managers manage how they are comfortable managing. Jose can't be Fergie any more than Moyes can be Busby or Alf £#%&!ing Ramsey. Probably best to file Fergie under past managers like fat Ron, Wilf, Doc etc..

I would have told Rooney not to push that bloke, we'd have probably won then.

For the record, we have the highest number of crosses in the league

Originally Posted by believe

I would have told Rooney not to push that bloke, we'd have probably won then.

For the record, we have the highest number of crosses in the league

Moyes

Originally Posted by believe

For the record, we have the highest number of crosses in the league

That's not a great tactic to use when you only have one or two players in the box, being marked by nine.

Originally Posted by Sandman

That's not a great tactic to use when you only have one or two players in the box, being marked by nine.

Never said it was mate

Originally Posted by Sandman

That's not a great tactic to use when you only have one or two players in the box, being marked by nine.

They've been told all season to aim for Zlat, kind of £#%&!ed when he's not there.

Go back in time and tell zlatan and herrera not to get sent off and pogba and mata not to get injured.
Maybe go back to last year while i'm at it and tell martial not to cheat on his bird

2-3-5 early 60s style. Have at them!!!!

We're at home, they've parked the bus. Use a battering ram, not a £#%&!ing twig.

Originally Posted by jem

you do for this thread.

I bet you wish you hadn't said that now, don't you?

Nah, don't need hindsight for something so predictable that's been consistently demonstrated this season, in fact, demonstrated throughout Mourinho's career. We don't need hindsight to know it will be the same system tonight either.

Originally Posted by jem

obvs, the way west brom would play was totally predictable. not only did mourinho not set out with a plan to deal effectively with a known problem, he didn't even respond in the game. rooney for mkhi, ffs. not special. not special at all.

as for your solution, you can't create space behind the defence for your speedy players if the defence is sitting deep with a 5-man midfield also sitting deep. you draw 0-0 and are ridiculed. soz.

It's not a unique problem against West Brom though is it? How many times have we controlled the play this season as teams defend deep and pack the box with defenders? We've drawn over half our games at Old Trafford in large part because of it.

The way we play actually encourages that. 1) Because our team is so compact the opposition often find it difficult to advance up the pitch - from a defensive viewpoint that is great but it means the opponent isn't encouraged to break out of their defensive shape. 2) When we defend we do it in numbers and don't leave players up the pitch - this provides limited outlets for us to make fast breaks, the build up play is slow and it allows the opposition to get ten men behind the ball. 3) In attack we fail to use the full width of the pitch or switch/spread the play to stretch the opposition defence.

The result of all this is congestion in the middle of the pitch and in and around the opponent's box. It's the same situation whether we play West Brom, Bournemouth, Hull, etc, etc, etc. The way to prevent it is to stretch the play and open up the game to both sides where the greater quality of our attacking players will generally prevail.

turn the screw. and don't let go, not for 5 minutes, never mind the 15 we usually let go for. turn it tighter. and tighter. and tighter again. keep turning it. turn that screw all over the pitch. build the tempo. build that tempo right the £#%&! up. turn the screw until it snaps the £#%&! off the scale. put your foot on their horrible brummie throats and keep it there. grind them into the dust. all that kind of thing really. winning is a state of mind ...

i'd also remind these idiots that the game lasts for 90 minutes and that as long as you play for the full amount of time the probability is that you will score goals. so why the £#%&! are you panicking like bitches already from halfway through the first half? get a £#%&!ing grip. you're man united ffs.

Originally Posted by Denis Irwell

Hear what you're saying pal but Fergie is gone. There aren't any others, otherwise everybody would have one. Managers manage how they are comfortable managing. Jose can't be Fergie any more than Moyes can be Busby or Alf £#%&!ing Ramsey. Probably best to file Fergie under past managers like fat Ron, Wilf, Doc etc..

Yes but there are attack minded managers and there are defensive minded managers. Managers like Fergie, Sampaoli and Hasenhüttl fall into the former category. Managers like Van Gaal, Mourinho and Conte (who it's only working for because he has the quality of Hazard and Costa) fall into the latter category.

Originally Posted by dunk

They've been told all season to aim for Zlat, kind of £#%&!ed when he's not there.

indeed. rather odd mourinho didn't use fellaini as ibra-lite instead of trying him as herrera-zero.

Originally Posted by gav81

Nah, don't need hindsight

it's in the thread title: "using 20/20 hindsight....." stop going off topic.

Originally Posted by gav81

Nah, don't need hindsight for something so predictable that's been consistently demonstrated this season, in fact, demonstrated throughout Mourinho's career. We don't need hindsight to know it will be the same system tonight either.

It's not a unique problem against West Brom though is it? How many times have we controlled the play this season as teams defend deep and pack the box with defenders? We've drawn over half our games at Old Trafford in large part because of it.

The way we play actually encourages that. 1) Because our team is so compact the opposition often find it difficult to advance up the pitch - from a defensive viewpoint that is great but it means the opponent isn't encouraged to break out of their defensive shape. 2) When we defend we do it in numbers and don't leave players up the pitch - this provides limited outlets for us to make fast breaks, the build up play is slow and it allows the opposition to get ten men behind the ball. 3) In attack we fail to use the full width of the pitch or switch/spread the play to stretch the opposition defence.

The result of all this is congestion in the middle of the pitch and in and around the opponent's box. It's the same situation whether we play West Brom, Bournemouth, Hull, etc, etc, etc. The way to prevent it is to stretch the play and open up the game to both sides where the greater quality of our attacking players will generally prevail.

you are right that it was predictable and you are right that west brom did not present a unique challenge (as has been said elsewhere). I think you are wrong about the causes/solutions. we often use the full width. the problem is that we don't cross accurately or have enough men in the box. most of the time, the width is used to pull the ball deeper into the middle. also, the benefit of having players like martial, rashford and (if I £#%&!ing have to mention this useless @#%&! as well) lingard is that you don't have to leave them high up the pitch - they can get there on the break. they are at their best carrying the ball in space, taking players on, running behind - not at hanging around on the half-way line waiting for a long clearance. it certainly isn't the case that our team is so compact that teams can't advance against us - it depends entirely on how adventurous the other team is. against the better teams or teams that are prepared to come at us, our system works ok (aside from the lumbering, wasteful number 9). the problem is that mourinho doesn't change his tactics to suit the opposition. his only real change seems to be to add more defenders, sometimes to start and sometimes mid-game - all that does is adjust the level of depression. we all know that the last thing united want to be doing with 20 minutes to go and a narrow lead is try to kill the game by packing our defence. it just invites pressure (quite the opposite of being compact and stopping the other team advancing). to protect the defence and keep the other team pinned back, he should bring on midfielders and fresh forwards. but he is a gutless, anti-football, pure evil little shit.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

turn the screw. and don't let go, not for 5 minutes, never mind the 15 we usually let go for. turn it tighter. and tighter. and tighter again. keep turning it. turn that screw all over the pitch. build the tempo. build that tempo right the £#%&! up. turn the screw until it snaps the £#%&! off the scale. put your foot on their horrible brummie throats and keep it there. grind them into the dust. all that kind of thing really. winning is a state of mind ...

i'd also remind these idiots that the game lasts for 90 minutes and that as long as you play for the full amount of time the probability is that you will score goals. so why the £#%&! are you panicking like bitches already from halfway through the first half? get a £#%&!ing grip. you're man united ffs.

this. until I find a reason throb is, predictably, still wrong.

Originally Posted by gav81

Yes but there are attack minded managers and there are defensive minded managers. Managers like Fergie, Sampaoli and Hasenhüttl fall into the former category. Managers like Van Gaal, Mourinho and Conte (who it's only working for because he has the quality of Hazard and Costa) fall into the latter category.

I think it's fair to say that most of us were crying out for Hasenhüttl by the end of the game.

433 (essentially 2-5-3)

Triangles.

Use those triangles to get to the by line.

Keeping whacking it hard and low.

4-0

Originally Posted by itisme_panaflex

Keeping whacking it hard and low.

Originally Posted by jem

it's in the thread title: "using 20/20 hindsight....." stop going off topic.

Ok ok

Originally Posted by jem

you are right that it was predictable and you are right that west brom did not present a unique challenge (as has been said elsewhere). I think you are wrong about the causes/solutions. we often use the full width. the problem is that we don't cross accurately or have enough men in the box. most of the time, the width is used to pull the ball deeper into the middle. also, the benefit of having players like martial, rashford and (if I £#%&!ing have to mention this useless c*** as well) lingard is that you don't have to leave them high up the pitch - they can get there on the break. they are at their best carrying the ball in space, taking players on, running behind - not at hanging around on the half-way line waiting for a long clearance. it certainly isn't the case that our team is so compact that teams can't advance against us - it depends entirely on how adventurous the other team is. against the better teams or teams that are prepared to come at us, our system works ok (aside from the lumbering, wasteful number 9). the problem is that mourinho doesn't change his tactics to suit the opposition. his only real change seems to be to add more defenders, sometimes to start and sometimes mid-game - all that does is adjust the level of depression. we all know that the last thing united want to be doing with 20 minutes to go and a narrow lead is try to kill the game by packing our defence. it just invites pressure (quite the opposite of being compact and stopping the other team advancing). to protect the defence and keep the other team pinned back, he should bring on midfielders and fresh forwards. but he is a gutless, anti-football, pure evil little shit.

Do we really use the full width of the pitch? What I see is Martial come inside almost everytime. Even when he goes outside, he then cuts inside. It's like he can't cross the ball until he's on the edge of the box, by which time it's very congested in there. Rashford, Lingard and Mata too. Even Valencia seems to drive or work the ball in a diagonal path toward the box. We don't play with wingers who hug the touchline or get crosses in early but with inside forwards which narrows the play in comparison. Neither do I see us quickly switch the play from one flank to the other to stretch the opposition across the pitch. It's all very narrow and doesn't create the gaps in the opposition defence to exploit or give wider angles to shoot. Look at the best chance we had against West Brom - we had to play a series of intricate passes to carve out a tiny space in the box for Fellaini to shoot and even then with the defenders blocking, the angle was almost impossible.

About stretching the game using the length of the pitch, the forwards often aren't in a position to break and get up the pitch because of their defensive responsibilities in Mourinho's system. I see it over and over where the player who should be up the pitch to receive the ball is in a deeper, defensive position. There's no outlet - the players can't be in a defensive and attacking position at once. I think keeping pacey players like Rashford, Martial and Lingard up the pitch is exactly what we need to stretch the game and allow fast breaks. It's more of a risk defensively but £#%&! it, United are supposed to be known for our lightening attacks.

Apart from that, I completely agree a lot depends on how adventurous the opposition are. I was just saying elsewhere that if Everton come out tonight thinking they are good enough to have a go and attack us it will play right into our hands and we'll win. If they defend like Bournemouth, Hull, West Brom, etc, then we will find it difficult to breakthrough again. The point I am making is that by not stretching the play and opening the game up it actually encourages, almost forces, weaker opposition to go into a defensive shell.

I also agree with your sentiment and reasoning in reference to Mourinho. Bringing on extra defenders is another level to simply keeping the team compact and you're right, actually increases the pressure on our goal.

Never expected a GavJem bromance

Originally Posted by believe

Never expected a GavJem bromance

Are you kidding? Perfect for each other - one is a slightly odd no doubt friendless and girlfriendless reclusive who thinks Roy Keane is the answer to every question ever; the other is Gav

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Are you kidding? Perfect for each other - one is a slightly odd no doubt friendless and girlfriendless reclusive who thinks Roy Keane is the answer to every question ever; the other is Gav