Official Match Thread: Stoke v United

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Can people please stop arguing about "being entertained" because quite frankly I don't buy any of this "i don't care about winning as long as we're entertaining" %@#$&!s because it's all hot air designed to win arguments on the internet. It's all hot air and posturing to make people feel like they're a superior supporter to everyone else. Nobody buys it. It's all bullshit.

It's absolute codswallop. I remember people laughing their %@#$&!s off at Newcastle losing games 3-2 and 4-3 back in 1996 whilst we ruthlessly 1-0'd our way to the title every week. I don't remember anyone saying "i'd give this league and cup double back if we could have a team half as entertaining as Newcastle".

There is a balance between playing nice, entertaining football when the opportunity presents itself but always with the ultimate objective of winning. The fact is this United team don't do either very regularly. Currently they've scored less goals than Watford, Crystal Palace, West Ham and Bournemouth. Such is the paucity of scoring any £#%&!ing goals that people have convinced themselves that crashing out of europe to a team like Wolfsburg but managing to score 2 goals is some sort of moral victory.

Absolutely spot on - particularly the last paragraph. "Proud of the lads tonight", etc.

Originally Posted by Nicebutdim

Our success has always been tied to the manager. Thats why I cried when Fergie left because he took everything he made with him and I knew we had some very tough times ahead. We may be a big club but we are not close to being the best structured and run. Quite frankly I expect us to be a shambles until we find the next great manager who will control things top to bottom and will give us as many years as he has to do it, unlike a LVG or Pep.

Klopp may have been the guy but such is life.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

You are spot on Sparky. My point was people don't want Van Gaal out just because he's lost a few games it's because it's consistently boring shit and even when we win it's boring. Of course any manager losing games will come under pressure but if there is a direction and some entertaining stuff in between you wouldn't see so much of our support wanting him out.

There's being boring like we were in the last few years under Fergie and then there's this shit.

Even when we were dull there was a chance we'd get a late winner or make a second half comeback but the last few months under Van Gaal have been dire

fergie's style of management was a thing of the past under fergie.

all we've really needed was someone competent enough to pick a midfield. seems incredible that fergie, moyes and van gaal could all have failed on that one point. no one else plays like united.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

it did.

As I said earlier we seemed to be overcome with this desire to deny how spoilt we'd become...how entitled we were to winning things.
We were almost embarrassed to steady the Ship by bringing in a safe pair of hands.

Yep, hence the Sexton Reds and their wallowing, even revelling in being shit as if it was something to celebrate. More concerned about scoring moral points from £#%&!ing ABUs () than maintaining the success Ferguson had worked for, an idea they apparently found distasteful. No, far better to give absolutely anyone the job, no matter how woefully underqualified, and simply wait - because at some point they will definitely, inevitably do exactly what Ferguson did. And in the meantime you earn thousands of top red points drawing ludicrous and meaningless comparisons with the past and belittling anyone who disagrees with your bullshit. Sadly the club also seemed to have this attitude and has utterly £#%&!ed itself for years.

What seems to be missing, imho, is any sense of tatical managment during the match. If something happened, like a goal against or our full back being constantly exposed down one side or another, Fergie would adjust it, either by going to the technical area himself or in the later years sending Phelan. I don't see any attempt to adjust things during the match from vG. He doesn't go himself nor does he send Giggs or one of his other assistants. Most of the other managers in the PL and in the European leagues are down there on the touchline, constantly watching, analysing and if needed tweaking formation and tatics to suit the ongoing situation. Our technical area by contrast is like a ghost town.

Originally Posted by Albert Tatlock

What seems to be missing, imho, is any sense of tatical managment during the match. If something happened, like a goal against or our full back being constantly exposed down one side or another, Fergie would adjust it, either by going to the technical area himself or in the later years sending Phelan. I don't see any attempt to adjust things during the match from vG. He doesn't go himself nor does he send Giggs or one of his other assistants. Most of the other managers in the PL and in the European leagues are down there on the touchline, constantly watching, analysing and if needed tweaking formation and tatics to suit the ongoing situation. Our technical area by contrast is like a ghost town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2oXzrnti4&sns=em

Originally Posted by Albert Tatlock

What seems to be missing, imho, is any sense of tatical managment during the match. If something happened, like a goal against or our full back being constantly exposed down one side or another, Fergie would adjust it, either by going to the technical area himself or in the later years sending Phelan. I don't see any attempt to adjust things during the match from vG. He doesn't go himself nor does he send Giggs or one of his other assistants. Most of the other managers in the PL and in the European leagues are down there on the touchline, constantly watching, analysing and if needed tweaking formation and tatics to suit the ongoing situation. Our technical area by contrast is like a ghost town.

There were plenty of warnings vs Norwich, before they scored, that we were vulnerable on the counter as they effectively only had to bypass Carrick in order to be through against our defence. There was so much space behind Fellaini

Originally Posted by Albert Tatlock

What seems to be missing, imho, is any sense of tatical managment during the match. If something happened, like a goal against or our full back being constantly exposed down one side or another, Fergie would adjust it, either by going to the technical area himself or in the later years sending Phelan. I don't see any attempt to adjust things during the match from vG. He doesn't go himself nor does he send Giggs or one of his other assistants. Most of the other managers in the PL and in the European leagues are down there on the touchline, constantly watching, analysing and if needed tweaking formation and tatics to suit the ongoing situation. Our technical area by contrast is like a ghost town.

He probably is trying to teach the players to think more for themselves and given the results they must be a bunch of morons.

Originally Posted by Ranier Wolfcastle

There were plenty of warnings vs Norwich before they scored that we were vulnerable on the counter as they effectively only had to bypass Carrick in order to be through against our defence. There was so much space behind Fellaini

So true.. Fellaini in midfield or anywhere on the pitch, aswell as a shite footballer, he is a lazy bastard, does not track back, lets players run off him with out tracking them..

Originally Posted by boreez

He probably is trying to teach the players to think more for themselves and given the results they must be a bunch of morons.

Think for themselves? That's exactly what they're not supposed to do.

They're supposed to think 'what has van gaal told me to do in this situation'. It's exactly why United are so boring and predictable because individuality and spontaneity gets you dropped, case in point Ander Herrera.

He wants 11 robots out there, not individuals with their own minds.

Originally Posted by Alan

Think for themselves? That's exactly what they're not supposed to do.

They're supposed to think 'what has van gaal told me to do in this situation'. It's exactly why United are so boring and predictable because individuality and spontaneity gets you dropped, case in point Ander Herrera.

He wants 11 robots out there, not individuals with their own minds.

That isn't true, he's said many times his aim is for the players to be able to solve problems out on the pitch themselves, without any input from the coaching staff.

Originally Posted by Alan

Think for themselves? That's exactly what they're not supposed to do.

They're supposed to think 'what has van gaal told me to do in this situation'. It's exactly why United are so boring and predictable because individuality and spontaneity gets you dropped, case in point Ander Herrera.

He wants 11 robots out there, not individuals with their own minds.

What he wants is a team, not 11 individuals.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

I think it's more about being entertaining overall. The 1-0 wins are the stuff of titles, but the core of those sides and most United sides was that they were entertaining.

That slowed in Fergie's later years and we became very pragmatic and functionally effective.

I do agree that people are full of shit when it comes to "I'd rather lose playing well that win playing dull"

No you wouldn't. If you did, you'd have enjoyed the Wolfsburg game. Very attacking, very entertaining game.

When you look back over the last 20 years what are people's fondest and most thrilling memories of watching United? I guarantee you most, if not all, would say things like scoring 2 goals in stoppage time in a dreadfully dull Champions League final, Eric scoring that volley against Liverpool at Wembley in another dreadfully dull cup final or battering City 5-0, battering Roma 7-1....things like that. Nobody is going to say oooh that 4-3 away at reading in 2013 or that 4-4 draw with Everton in 2012.

That's where all this Entertainment>Winning %@#$&!s falls down, because ultimately you're emotionally invested in this, or at least youre supposed to be. You are allowed to be biased, to want Utd to win every game. Pretending you don't care about winning is simply just another way of distancing yourself from idea of being a 'glory supporter' or whatever and it's yet another way the ABUs have got into the heads of United's wider support and changed how they behave towards one another.

It's similar to how when United were at the height of their powers that literally the only avenue ABUs had to get at United's fans was by trying to make them feel ashamed of having a huge, worldwide support that most other clubs would kill for. And it worked, because football supporters are obsessed with what everyone thinks of them.

Anyway I digress, this mentality of trying to make out like you don't care about winning is the same mentality that all this "a few shit years will do us good, get rid of the oot's" %@#$&!s. And you saw how long that lasted with Moyes. Barely 8 months and people were foaming at the mouth to get him out.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

When you look back over the last 20 years what are people's fondest and most thrilling memories of watching United? I guarantee you most, if not all, would say things like scoring 2 goals in stoppage time in a dreadfully dull Champions League final, Eric scoring that volley against Liverpool at Wembley in another dreadfully dull cup final or battering City 5-0, battering Roma 7-1....things like that. Nobody is going to say oooh that 4-3 away at reading in 2013 or that 4-4 draw with Everton in 2012.

That's where all this Entertainment>Winning balls falls down, because ultimately you're emotionally invested in this, or at least youre supposed to be. You are allowed to be biased, to want Utd to win every game. Pretending you don't care about winning is simply just another way of distancing yourself from idea of being a 'glory supporter' or whatever and it's yet another way the ABUs have got into the heads of United's wider support and changed how they behave towards one another.

It's similar to how when United were at the height of their powers that literally the only avenue ABUs had to get at United's fans was by trying to make them feel ashamed of having a huge, worldwide support that most other clubs would kill for. And it worked, because football supporters are obsessed with what everyone thinks of them.

Anyway I digress, this mentality of trying to make out like you don't care about winning is the same mentality that all this "a few shit years will do us good, get rid of the oot's" balls. And you saw how long that lasted with Moyes. Barely 8 months and people were foaming at the mouth to get him out.

Yeah. In essence, I agree. People pretend they will take entertainment over winning, but it simple isn't true.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

When you look back over the last 20 years what are people's fondest and most thrilling memories of watching United? I guarantee you most, if not all, would say things like scoring 2 goals in stoppage time in a dreadfully dull Champions League final, Eric scoring that volley against Liverpool at Wembley in another dreadfully dull cup final or battering City 5-0, battering Roma 7-1....things like that. Nobody is going to say oooh that 4-3 away at reading in 2013 or that 4-4 draw with Everton in 2012.

That's where all this Entertainment>Winning %@#$&!s falls down, because ultimately you're emotionally invested in this, or at least youre supposed to be. You are allowed to be biased, to want Utd to win every game. Pretending you don't care about winning is simply just another way of distancing yourself from idea of being a 'glory supporter' or whatever and it's yet another way the ABUs have got into the heads of United's wider support and changed how they behave towards one another.

It's similar to how when United were at the height of their powers that literally the only avenue ABUs had to get at United's fans was by trying to make them feel ashamed of having a huge, worldwide support that most other clubs would kill for. And it worked, because football supporters are obsessed with what everyone thinks of them.

Anyway I digress, this mentality of trying to make out like you don't care about winning is the same mentality that all this "a few shit years will do us good, get rid of the oot's" %@#$&!s. And you saw how long that lasted with Moyes. Barely 8 months and people were foaming at the mouth to get him out.

Yep. It's the way that some people assume that you can only play entertaining football and lose or play dull football and win, that £#%&!s me off

We became duller in Fergie's later years because that was his "value" era.

You can only entertain if you have players capable of entertaining; at this stage Fergie's was replacing individual match winners like Ronaldo & Tevez with players like Valencia, Owen & Young

Even then at the start of 11/12 we played some superb football yet for some reason it didn't last.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

When you look back over the last 20 years what are people's fondest and most thrilling memories of watching United? I guarantee you most, if not all, would say things like scoring 2 goals in stoppage time in a dreadfully dull Champions League final, Eric scoring that volley against Liverpool at Wembley in another dreadfully dull cup final or battering City 5-0, battering Roma 7-1....things like that. Nobody is going to say oooh that 4-3 away at reading in 2013 or that 4-4 draw with Everton in 2012.

That's where all this Entertainment>Winning %@#$&!s falls down, because ultimately you're emotionally invested in this, or at least youre supposed to be. You are allowed to be biased, to want Utd to win every game. Pretending you don't care about winning is simply just another way of distancing yourself from idea of being a 'glory supporter' or whatever and it's yet another way the ABUs have got into the heads of United's wider support and changed how they behave towards one another.

It's similar to how when United were at the height of their powers that literally the only avenue ABUs had to get at United's fans was by trying to make them feel ashamed of having a huge, worldwide support that most other clubs would kill for. And it worked, because football supporters are obsessed with what everyone thinks of them.

Anyway I digress, this mentality of trying to make out like you don't care about winning is the same mentality that all this "a few shit years will do us good, get rid of the oot's" %@#$&!s. And you saw how long that lasted with Moyes. Barely 8 months and people were foaming at the mouth to get him out.

Spot on.

You'd have good rep if i knew how to do it.