Official Match Thread: Stoke v United

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Are you mental?

Fergie had just delivered the biggest success of any British manager at any British club. He clearly wasn't going to get shit from the press or fans.

he got shit from me for not investing in the midfield and for the shit football. because you can't excuse your current performance by saying you used to be good. not in this game.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

Not sure how you can compare Fergie's last few years with what LvG has produced

Aside from actually winning some trophies we scored lots of goals, created a lot of chances and had many exciting games (like all those come from behind victories in Fergie's last season)

It certainly wasn't a great side and I had a problem with how far behind the best in Europe we had fallen tactically but on the whole it certainly wasn't boring

After what LvG (and Moyes before him) have produced those last few years under Fergie look like a golden era

it certainly was boring.

Originally Posted by jem

he got shit from me for not investing in the midfield and for the shit football. because you can't excuse your current performance by saying you used to be good. not in this game.

it certainly was boring.

He got shit from me too - most informed people on here. He badly neglected the squad and made some appalling transfer decisions. My point was about the fans generally and the media who were unlikely to go in too hard given his success.

He got out though knowing that it needed a rebuild and he wasn't the one to go it.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

He got shit from me too - most informed people on here. He badly neglected the squad and made some appalling transfer decisions. My point was about the fans generally and the media who were unlikely to go in too hard given his success.

He got out though knowing that it needed a rebuild and he wasn't the one to go it.

Fergie had a massive influence over the media, as he did over the whole of English football. He was the one who held everything together at United, he over saw everything with the an iron fist.

Since he left there's a been a fractious, almost mutinous atmosphere at times within the club, leaks to the media, players taking over the mantle of power holders within the club...the chief executive is a glorified city boy no-neck £#%&!er who commands about as much respect within his field as a community support copper.

The media have capitalised on this instability and have been making the most of it; dishing out unprecedented slaggings and getting all sorts of juicy headline material from leaks within the club and former players sticking the boot in.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Fergie had a massive influence over the media, as he did over the whole of English football. He was the one who held everything together at United, he over saw everything with the an iron fist.

Since he left there's a been a fractious, almost mutinous atmosphere at times within the club, leaks to the media, players taking over the mantle of power holders within the club...the chief executive is a glorified city boy no-neck w****r who commands about as much respect within his field as a community support copper.

The media have capitalised on this instability and have been making the most of it; dishing out unprecedented slaggings and getting all sorts of juicy headline material from leaks within the club and former players sticking the boot in.

This guy knows

This was always likely after Fergie. It's going to take time and a big personality to turn it around. Assuming José will come in and just sort it is naive.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

I honestly think this angle is being overplayed.
I think Scholes is no different to me, you or anybody else on here. Just a United fan with a view on how we should play.
I don't doubt that him & Giggsy probably have a moan on the phone about stuff but there's no agenda (I don't think anyway)

People keep talking about Rooney, but Fellaini is the biggest issue. Why on earth is he getting a shirt every week?? It's insane.
I used to say he was a "Stoke player" but having seen them today he's not even their type of player any more.
He's a Championship player at best.

Van Gaal isn't doing himself any favours, regardless of what Giggs, Scholes, Rooney etc.. do or say.

He really is terrible. Plays like a wardrobe on wheels running downhill.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Fergie had a platform of unbridled success at the club to give him the power to ride out shit periods. Lvg has only had a shit period at the club and has managed to lose the dressing room with even the players he's brought in stinking the place out more than most.

Literally everything that could go wrong has done - his tactics, his squad management, his motivational skills, his substitutions, his training, his injuries, his football. It's all been shit. But yeah, Paul scholes has been a bit critical.

Pretty much this in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger

Sounds like fergie's first 5 years.

United, and football in general, were different animals back then. We may hate it, but it is as it is.

Originally Posted by utd99

He really is terrible. Plays like a wardrobe on wheels running downhill.


Pretty much this in a nutshell.

Hey, lay off Rooney

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

This guy knows

This was always likely after Fergie. It's going to take time and a big personality to turn it around. Assuming José will come in and just sort it is naive.

You see, that's where we're £#%&!ing up. There isn't and never will be another Ferguson. I don't speak in terms of sheer number of trophies and years served, I speak in terms of one man completely and utterly dominating the football club from within for a decade. That era is gone. The most successful club in the world over the last 10 years, Barcelona - have had 5 managers in that time.

We need to stop this silly notion that we're going to bring someone in who is going to manage for 10-15 years, rule over everyone within the club and instantly command respect from a dressing room full of millionaires and players on 200k a week. it's an anomaly in modern football terms.

The longer we pretend that the only thing every single manager needs to 'do a fergie' is for Utd to allow them years and years and years to eventually get it right, the quicker we're going to turn into Liverpool. A gibbering neurotic, needy mess of a club who have been searching for a Shankly in every manager for the last 30 years.

We may moan about Fergie's last few years, but his team got 89 points in each of our last two years. A world away from where we are now.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

You see, that's where we're £#%&!ing up. There isn't and never will be another Ferguson. I don't speak in terms of sheer number of trophies and years served, I speak in terms of one man completely and utterly dominating the football club from within for a decade. That era is gone. The most successful club in the world over the last 10 years, Barcelona - have had 5 managers in that time.

We need to stop this silly notion that we're going to bring someone in who is going to manage for 10-15 years, rule over everyone within the club and instantly command respect from a dressing room full of millionaires and players on 200k a week. it's an anomaly in modern football terms.

The longer we pretend that the only thing every single manager needs to 'do a fergie' is for Utd to allow them years and years and years to eventually get it right, the quicker we're going to turn into Liverpool. A gibbering neurotic, needy mess of a club who have been searching for a Shankly in every manager for the last 30 years.

Longevity apart, Jose does have the personality and track record, critically, in the PL, to make a mark.......and he just might linger a few years with a free reign to sign his own players for once.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

You see, that's where we're £#%&!ing up. There isn't and never will be another Ferguson. I don't speak in terms of sheer number of trophies and years served, I speak in terms of one man completely and utterly dominating the football club from within for a decade. That era is gone. The most successful club in the world over the last 10 years, Barcelona - have had 5 managers in that time.

We need to stop this silly notion that we're going to bring someone in who is going to manage for 10-15 years, rule over everyone within the club and instantly command respect from a dressing room full of millionaires and players on 200k a week. it's an anomaly in modern football terms.

The longer we pretend that the only thing every single manager needs to 'do a fergie' is for Utd to allow them years and years and years to eventually get it right, the quicker we're going to turn into Liverpool. A gibbering neurotic, needy mess of a club who have been searching for a Shankly in every manager for the last 30 years.

No, I agree. I don't mean another Fergie and you're absolutely right that we need to get him out of our heads. All the analysis of our current plight is punctuated with 'when Fergie was here....' sentiments. Just forget that. He's gone. He'll have been gone three years before we know it.

Andrei Kanchelskis was throwing his two cents the other day. A man who played for us 20 £#%&!ing years ago. 20! Banging on about 442 and wingers. You're not helping, Andrei.

When I say strong personality, I mean somebody with conviction of lvg but the 'streetwise' make-up that will earn us enough points to stay competitive in this league. For all his qualities, I really don't think lvg gets this league enough. For whatever reason, he can't get his ideas across. It doesn't translate.

We need something in between. The balance for us now is changing the landscape of where we want to go in the next few years in terms of style etc, but being successful enough straight away to keep the vultures away.

Not easy. Not easy at all.

I've no idea who this is BTW.

Originally Posted by ewaawoowaa

The team of players that LVG got rid of would easily have won this league under fergie.

And it would have been functional and boring as £#%&!. Up to the past few weeks, this season was little different to fergie's last few seasons, including being nicely placed in the league.

Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger

And it would have been functional and boring as £#%&!. Up to the past few weeks, this season was little different to fergie's last few seasons, including being nicely placed in the league.

Yep, then once the international breaks stopped interrupting the league schedule, we then had to go about winning those pesky league games.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

Not sure how you can compare Fergie's last few years with what LvG has produced

Aside from actually winning some trophies we scored lots of goals, created a lot of chances and had many exciting games (like all those come from behind victories in Fergie's last season)

It certainly wasn't a great side and I had a problem with how far behind the best in Europe we had fallen tactically but on the whole it certainly wasn't boring

After what LvG (and Moyes before him) have produced those last few years under Fergie look like a golden era

Well, it's a matter of opinion, and I don't recall much good football and being bored to such an extent during his last 4 years that I lost complete interest. Couldn't be bothered watching the title decider against Chelsea the year they won it, and watched highlights of the match when city won the league on the last day rather than watch live. The negative and meek surrender to city in a championship decider at the etihad summed up what fergie and his team had become.

Originally Posted by utd99

We may moan about Fergie's last few years, but his team got 89 points in each of our last two years. A world away from where we are now.

yep.
& Rooney scored 50 goals over those 2 seasons too (which doesn't quite tally up with this arbitrary fact that he's been "shit" for 4 years or whatever it is)

The Club have handled the post-Fergie era terribly.
In terms of managerial appointments, the majority of signings, the farcical Transfer windows etc..

It was never going to be easy but we haven't half ballsed it up.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

yep.
& Rooney scored 50 goals over those 2 seasons too (which doesn't quite tally up with this arbitrary fact that he's been "shit" for 4 years or whatever it is)

The Club have handled the post-Fergie era terribly.
In terms of managerial appointments, the majority of signings, the farcical Transfer windows etc..

It was never going to be easy but we haven't half ballsed it up.

Losing Gill at the same time £#%&!ed us too.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

You see, that's where we're £#%&!ing up. There isn't and never will be another Ferguson. I don't speak in terms of sheer number of trophies and years served, I speak in terms of one man completely and utterly dominating the football club from within for a decade. That era is gone. The most successful club in the world over the last 10 years, Barcelona - have had 5 managers in that time.

We need to stop this silly notion that we're going to bring someone in who is going to manage for 10-15 years, rule over everyone within the club and instantly command respect from a dressing room full of millionaires and players on 200k a week. it's an anomaly in modern football terms.

The longer we pretend that the only thing every single manager needs to 'do a fergie' is for Utd to allow them years and years and years to eventually get it right, the quicker we're going to turn into Liverpool. A gibbering neurotic, needy mess of a club who have been searching for a Shankly in every manager for the last 30 years.

It's always been an anomaly.

Teams like Madrid and barcalona can replace managers and maintain success because the manager is effectively just the first team coach. United's manager manages everything, and each managerial change usually also brings wholesale changes in staff throughout the club along with a change in strategy and youth systems and such. First team manager should really be separated from the management of the rest of the club. That's where stability comes from.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Losing Gill at the same time £#%&!ed us too.

it did.

As I said earlier we seemed to be overcome with this desire to deny how spoilt we'd become...how entitled we were to winning things.
We were almost embarrassed to steady the Ship by bringing in a safe pair of hands.

Moyes was a rotten choice. Van Gaal just as bad sadly.

It should have been Mourinho as soon as Fergie had decided to retire.
Moyes wasn't even an impressive, romantic choice anyway! He hadn't had any success whatsoever.
Set the Club back at least one generation, maybe 2.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

When I say strong personality, I mean somebody with conviction of lvg but the 'streetwise' make-up that will earn us enough points to stay competitive in this league.

Up to the injury problems and the squad's downing of tools upon going out of Europe, he had us a few points off the top of the league. So, he was doing exactly what you said whilst overseeing a huge transition in players and play style.

Taking a shambolic squad that finished seventh to being competitive inside 18 months clearly isn't enough. It has to be done whilst playing exciting football and keeping giggs and his mates happy.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

it did.

As I said earlier we seemed to be overcome with this desire to deny how spoilt we'd become...how entitled we were to winning things.
We were almost embarrassed to steady the Ship by bringing in a safe pair of hands.

Moyes was a rotten choice. Van Gaal just as bad sadly.

It should have been Mourinho as soon as Fergie had decided to retire.
Moyes wasn't even an impressive, romantic choice anyway! He hadn't had any success whatsoever.
Set the Club back at least one generation, maybe 2.

I think Van Gaal was a better choice 'on paper', it just hasn't worked. But yes, it should have been José from the start. We should have been ruthless and looked to remain as successful as we could while figuring out where we want to go.

Can people please stop arguing about "being entertained" because quite frankly I don't buy any of this "i don't care about winning as long as we're entertaining" %@#$&!s because it's all hot air designed to win arguments on the internet. It's all hot air and posturing to make people feel like they're a superior supporter to everyone else. Nobody buys it. It's all bullshit.

It's absolute codswallop. I remember people laughing their %@#$&!s off at Newcastle losing games 3-2 and 4-3 back in 1996 whilst we ruthlessly 1-0'd our way to the title every week. I don't remember anyone saying "i'd give this league and cup double back if we could have a team half as entertaining as Newcastle".

There is a balance between playing nice, entertaining football when the opportunity presents itself but always with the ultimate objective of winning. The fact is this United team don't do either very regularly. Currently they've scored less goals than Watford, Crystal Palace, West Ham and Bournemouth. Such is the paucity of scoring any £#%&!ing goals that people have convinced themselves that crashing out of europe to a team like Wolfsburg but managing to score 2 goals is some sort of moral victory.