Diarra took Scholes apart again..

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Without a doubt.

Must say, on a side note, some of the interplay at times last night was outstanding, particularly involving Tevez, Evra and Anderson.

our three best players imo.

both did alot of work BOTH attcking wise and defensively.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Must say, on a side note, some of the interplay at times last night was outstanding, particularly involving Tevez, Evra and Anderson.

Absolutely! It was hard for me not to burst into hysterics at times at the way we were just toying with their midfield

*EDIT* Also, I was very tempted to bump my stupid total football thread from last season. Some of the interchanging from our front four was almost ridiculous at times.

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

Absolutely! It was hard for me not to burst into hysterics at times at the way we were just toying with their midfield

*EDIT* Also, I was very tempted to bump my stupid total football thread from last season. Some of the interchanging from our front four was almost ridiculous at times.

Where has what you saw last night left you on Berbatov? I've gone back and forth on this one, but when I see that kind of interchanging from the front players, and with Ronaldo and Nani to come back in, I do wonder if it's worth messing with trying to fit such a player in. Glad it's not my call.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Where has what you saw last night left you on Berbatov? I've gone back and forth on this one, but when I see that kind of interchanging from the front players, and with Ronaldo and Nani to come back in, I do wonder if it's worth messing with trying to fit such a player in. Glad it's not my call.

I actually think it should make us even more determined to bring him in, he suits this sort of football and he'd be that bigger man to hold the play up, look at how well he did with Robbie £#%&!ing Keane.

Imagine him with Rooney , Ronaldo and Tevez.

There is no questions marks in my view, we must bring him in, he will be perfect.

Originally Posted by Thiago

I actually think it should make us even more determined to bring him in, he suits this sort of football and he'd be that bigger man to hold the play up, look at how well he did with Robbie £#%&!ing Keane.

Imagine him with Rooney , Ronaldo and Tevez.

There is no questions marks in my view, we must bring him in, he will be perfect.

:bi:

Originally Posted by Thiago

Imagine him with Rooney , Ronaldo and Tevez.

How do you imagine that working? Tevez playing deeper, with Rooney and Ronaldo working eithjer side of Berbatov? Either way it leaves us with only two options in midfield. My concern isn't that we don't need another forward - we clearly do - it's just that signing Berbatov isn't just buying another striker, we'd be bringing in another player who would expect to start most games. If Fergie can't find a system which fits in all four, there could be problems. I'm not sure they can all play together, tbh.

Originally Posted by gedthemull

you are right Scholesy had no part in our attacking play tonight, he played shite

the MOM award was an absolute travestry. I now live and breathe in the

altenative dimension of Starlo Mansfields world, where collecting phone

numbers is the new trainspotting, because I now don't know what to do with

said chimps numbers if they ever spoke to me, unless my big willied mate

Ishmael was there, then I could have a tug whilst he chumps the chirpses.

HTH.:£#%&!er:

£#%&!ing hell 'because i now dont know what to do with said chimps numbers'

'then i could have a tug whlst he chumps the chrpses'

Got to admit thats funny as £#%&!

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

How do you imagine that working? Tevez playing deeper, with Rooney and Ronaldo working eithjer side of Berbatov? Either way it leaves us with only two options in midfield. My concern isn't that we don't need another forward - we clearly do - it's just that signing Berbatov isn't just buying another striker, we'd be bringing in another player who would expect to start most games. If Fergie can't find a system which fits in all four, there could be problems. I'm not sure they can all play together, tbh.

We only use 2 midfielders in the majority of our league games anyway, I think Berbatov, Rooney, Ronaldo and Carlos would all play together if all fit for most of the games.

Besides, with our luck we know we'll have injuries and Saha is NEVER fit so I think Berbatov will get plenty of games at the best team in the world and he won't be moaning.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Where has what you saw last night left you on Berbatov? I've gone back and forth on this one, but when I see that kind of interchanging from the front players, and with Ronaldo and Nani to come back in, I do wonder if it's worth messing with trying to fit such a player in. Glad it's not my call.

As much as I have a problem with his attitude and his price, I think Berbatov is undeniably a supremely gifted and very intelligent footballer. So I don't think he would interrupt or struggle with this kind of system. If anything, when you look at the kind of player he is, I think he would thrive in it.

Although he's very capable of playing as a point of reference, it's something he does for Bulgaria and did extremely well at times last season for Spurs (see his performance against Citeh in the Carling Cup after they went down to ten men - it was an absolute masterclass), he's also extremely comfortable picking the ball up in deeper positions right across the pitch.

In fact, most of the time for Spurs it was Berbatov who would drop in between the lines with Keane going long, rather than the other way round (see this graphic). So in an attacking sense, he's really got all the tools to fit comfortably into the fluid system we've been experimenting with, whilst also bringing something different to the table with his aerial ability and physical presence.

The one concern I do have, aside from the price and attitude issues raised above, is his lack of defensive work rate (in the words of his former coach at Leverkusen, Klaus Toppmoller: "[Berbatov] can be one of the best strikers around, but everyone should be aware he can be a lazy bastard."). In and of itself this probably isn't such an issue, but I do wonder about having two lazy types in the same team in Ronaldo and Berbatov.

There's no doubt for me the rest if the team, particularly Rooney and Tevez, did a lot of covering for Ronaldo's lack of defensive application last season. And at times, particularly against really strong opposition, Rooney would even be moved permanently to the flanks due to his willing attitude, quick attack-defence transitions and tactical intelligence (all areas where it's fair to say that Ronaldo is lacking).

How does Berbatov fit into this aspect of the team? I'm not sure, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

As much as I have a problem with his attitude and his price, I think Berbatov is undeniably a supremely gifted and very intelligent footballer. So I don't think he would interrupt or struggle with this kind of system. If anything, when you look at the kind of player he is, I think he would thrive in it.

Although he's very capable of playing as a point of reference, it's something he does for Bulgaria and did extremely well at times last season for Spurs (see his performance against Citeh in the Carling Cup after they went down to ten men - it was an absolute masterclass), he's also extremely comfortable picking the ball up in deeper positions right across the pitch.

In fact, most of the time for Spurs it was Berbatov who would drop in between the lines with Keane going long, rather than the other way round (see this graphic). So in an attacking sense, he's really got all the tools to fit comfortably into the fluid system we've been experimenting with, whilst also bringing something different to the table with his aerial ability and physical presence.

The one concern I do have, aside from the price and attitude issues raised above, is his lack of defensive work rate (in the words of his former coach at Leverkusen, Klaus Toppmoller: "[Berbatov] can be one of the best strikers around, but everyone should be aware he can be a lazy bastard."). In and of itself this probably isn't such an issue, but I do wonder about having two lazy types in the same team in Ronaldo and Berbatov.

There's no doubt for me the rest if the team, particularly Rooney and Tevez, did a lot of covering for Ronaldo's lack of defensive application last season. And at times, particularly against really strong opposition, Rooney would even be moved permanently to the flanks due to his willing attitude, quick attack-defence transitions and tactical intelligence (all areas where it's fair to say that Ronaldo is lacking).

How does Berbatov fit into this aspect of the team? I'm not sure, to be honest.

Oh I don't doubt that he'd fit into the style of play, I mean more from the numbers aspect. When something is working so well, is it not dangerous to change it in such a drastic way by adding another attacking player into the line-up? He's coming here to play every week, not to simply be another option. I mean, at times last season, Fergie had to leave Tevez out of certain matches to give us another body in midfield. How are we going to manage to keep both him and Berbatov happy? It reminds me a little of my initial feeling when Barca signed Henry to play in the same side as Messi, Eto'o and Ronaldinho. I think we'll do well to make it work. Hopefully I'm wrong.

By the way, on the issue of the stats for the team with Scholes playing last season, in the league he started 22 matches, we won 15 of those, drew 5 and lost 2. This works out at an average of 2.27 points per game (picking up 76% of the available points), which is essentially identical to our full season average of 2.29 (this also rounds to 76%).

Amongst the players who started more than ten matches last season, the ones who really showed a noticeable positive difference in terms of points per game when starting were Rooney (25 matches and 2.48 PPG), Ronaldo (31 and 2.42) and Anderson (16 and 2.50).

When Edwin, Rio, Vidic and Evra all started together (this happened 15 times) we averaged 2.45 PPG. With Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (13 matches) we averaged 2.53. With all of the above players (11) we averaged 2.64 PPG, picking up 88% of available points.

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

By the way, on the issue of the stats for the team with Scholes playing last season, in the league he started 22 matches, we won 15 of those, drew 5 and lost 2. This works out at an average of 2.27 points per game (picking up 76% of the available points), which is essentially identical to our full season average of 2.29 (this also rounds to 76%).

Amongst the players who started more than ten matches last season, the ones who really showed a noticeable positive difference in terms of points per game when starting were Rooney (25 matches and 2.48 PPG), Ronaldo (31 and 2.42) and Anderson (16 and 2.50).

When Edwin, Rio, Vidic and Evra all started together (this happened 15 times) we averaged 2.45 PPG. With Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (13 matches) we averaged 2.53. With all of the above players (11) we averaged 2.64 PPG, picking up 88% of available points.

2.27 for scholes is lower that the rest of the big boys at the club.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Oh I don't doubt that he'd fit into the style of play, I mean more from the numbers aspect. When something is working so well, is it not dangerous to change it in such a drastic way by adding another attacking player into the line-up? He's coming here to play every week, not to simply be another option. I mean, at times last season, Fergie had to leave Tevez out of certain matches to give us another body in midfield. How are we going to manage to keep both him and Berbatov happy? It reminds me a little of my initial feeling when Barca signed Henry to play in the same side as Messi, Eto'o and Ronaldinho. I think we'll do well to make it work. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Yep. I've been over the maths of this before on here. Given that, with a few exceptions, Ronaldo and Rooney really don't get rotated much in the major competitions, you either try to squeeze all four into the same team or you see a drastic cut in playing time for one of Tevez or Berbatov. If Fergie's willing to spend the best part of two years and £25m+ pursuing Berbatov, a player closing in on 28-years old who is notorious for having a bit of 'special' temperament, then I would imagine that's going to be Tevez more often than not.

As happy as he is at United, is Tevez really going to want to sign a long-term contract at United and stick around at the club if he's effectively dropped from the first choice 11? I would doubt that myself.

i think realistically we're all expecting ronnie to leave next summer. that leaves us with berbatov, rooney and tevez as the front three.

Excellent observations Serenity in your first post. Watching the tape back the movement of United is incredible, not least because it looks almost automatic; the fluidity of the formation is a joy to behold. I also found it interesting just how often we were in a very distinct 3 at the back, without ever looking as if we were using wing-backs. my vision of 3-5-2 is on! John O'Shea proved his value to the squad yet again and played very well; he remains one of the best tactically aware players at United. I also thought Rooney was very good. He took his goal superbly, albeit it was wrongly flagged offside. The main plus point to come out of the match is that we have the players to keep the ball in any system - and we are tactically a superb football team.

Originally Posted by borsuk

i think realistically we're all expecting ronnie to leave next summer. that leaves us with berbatov, rooney and tevez as the front three.

That's my feeling too. We may struggle to fit them all into the same team this season, but I think it's very likely Ronaldo will be off in the summer. Add to that he's not due back till November and £#%&! knows how long it'll take to get him back to full fitness; never mind his attitude and performances once he's in the side again.

Also, Rooney is quite injury prone. This may be another issue to take into consideration.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

That's my feeling too. We may struggle to fit them all into the same team this season, but I think it's very likely Ronaldo will be off in the summer. Add to that he's not due back till November and £#%&! knows how long it'll take to get him back to full fitness; never mind his attitude and performances once he's in the side again.

Also, Rooney is quite injury prone. This may be another issue to take into consideration.

i'm not expecting Ronaldo to leave next summer at all, even though because he is in the football industry there is a chance he might be sold

in fact, Ferguson is on the record as saying he thinks that Ronaldo may stay a year or two longer than that at least

Gill has stated that there is absolutely no compromise agreement on a transfer next season

even Ronaldo himself has supposedly said that the train might only come along once

the only that is guaranteed is that the media will continually mention Real in sentences that mention Ronaldo, and that this lazy hackneyed shite for copy will intensify the longer the season goes on