*Official* United v Liverpool Match Thread

Originally Posted by Zorg

What a brilliant suggestion. I hadn't thought of that.

Smartarse. Btw I was being facetious.

Originally Posted by eddie_red

I was undecided on the penalty, thought it was maybe a bit soft.

Then I saw an angle from behind which ITV didn't actually use during the highlights, just the analysis.

Agger knocks Berbatov's left foot just as he's about to plant it.

10.17 here.

Townshend "he's gone in with one foot...the other one comes through with momentum"

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

It was a penalty but red card was debateable. Study the footage.

The footage is irrelevant.

The referee and assistants are part of the game and always will be.

The decisions made are part of the game.

It was a penalty because that was the decision given.

It was a red card because that was the decison given.

All the debate about whether or not it was a penalty or a red card is totally futile.

Still funny though...

Originally Posted by FannyBanter

But none of those points you've made, means it was a pen imo. Agreed about ITV is was £#%&!ing sickening.

Seriously, *how* does somebody as outrageously biased as Beglin get to do TV commentary??

it was a stupid challenge by agger however you look at it but i think it was a soft penalty, more a bump than a trip and i think the game is poorer for that kind of thing being given. there were at least three good penalty shouts for us apart from that though, two were nailed on imo.

the red card was as clear as you could wish to see. all this %@#$&!s about angle and intent is beside the point, you can't go in two-footed, off the ground, studs up at that speed without it being a straight red. there was a shot of dogleash watching the replay beside the fourth official on a monitor and he just turned away without a word of complaint, he knew it was a red. all the blather later is just playing up to the fans and trying to avoid gerrard getting charged with violent conduct.

gerrard misses three games now iirc. if they lose against blackpool (who rested most of their side at the weekend) on wednesday it will be a right kick in the %@#$&!s, all the momentum they hoped for from changing the manager gone. and then everton at the weekend, they could be in serious trouble with a bit of luck

Originally Posted by red in cumbria

Seriously, *how* does somebody as outrageously biased as Beglin get to do TV commentary??

I do sometimes think the ABU thing can be a tad paranoid, but I was speechless when listening to him.

Originally Posted by borsuk

it was a stupid challenge by agger however you look at it but i think it was a soft penalty, more a bump than a trip and i think the game is poorer for that kind of thing being given. there were at least three good penalty shouts for us apart from that though, two were nailed on imo.

the red card was as clear as you could wish to see. all this %@#$&!s about angle and intent is beside the point, you can't go in two-footed, off the ground, studs up at that speed without it being a straight red. there was a shot of dogleash watching the replay beside the fourth official on a monitor and he just turned away without a word of complaint, he knew it was a red. all the blather later is just playing up to the fans and trying to avoid gerrard getting charged with violent conduct.

gerrard misses three games now iirc. if they lose against blackpool (who rested most of their side at the weekend) on wednesday it will be a right kick in the %@#$&!s, all the momentum they hoped for from changing the manager gone. and then everton at the weekend, they could be in serious trouble with a bit of luck

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

Smartarse. Btw I was being facetious.

Originally Posted by borsuk

it was a stupid challenge by agger however you look at it but i think it was a soft penalty, more a bump than a trip and i think the game is poorer for that kind of thing being given. there were at least three good penalty shouts for us apart from that though, two were nailed on imo.

That's the way I saw it too. Yeah, you see them given, but it's incredibly shit if football can't take a bit of gentle contact without penalties being given. And the other shouts were so blatant it was comical.

I think it's very easy to misread slow motion replays, and real time ones aren't much use unless they're from the exact angle to show the contact. These camera positions obviously can't be pre-determined. So... you see it all the time, players going down and so-called experts saying there's no contact or that the player clipped his own heels etc. The reality is that even a feint touch on your leg either when you're about to take your next stride or in mid stride impede's your movement. The reason players have increasingly opted to go to ground is because otherwise these fouls are either ignored or not seen by the referee. From Berbatov's point of view he's been impeded, and he said afterwards that it knocked him off balance. The only question is whether there was intent on Agger's part. Clearly, he intended to make the challenge. Clearly he was late. So why is there still a debate as to whether or not it's a foul? The real question people are asking is whether it was worth a penalty. And so the debate is whether Webb has decided he couldn't not give it. Judging by the outcry the consensus seems to be that he was wrong, and that he could've not given it even though it was clearly a foul. Hope this clears it up.

Reading the letters in daily mail online the name Nolan comes to mind..

By the way Jamie as far as the game yesterday where Kenny made his comeback im amazed this man Howard Webb is allowed to take charge of big games at old trafford he is a joke the pen he gave was a blatant dive and act of cheating by Dimitar Berbatov it was a dibolical decision especialy when Eduardo who won a pen for Arsenal when they played Celtic came in for some terrible abuse by idiotic pundits who have been shown up as hypocrites people like Alan Brazil but the worst incident was the Steven Gerrard sending off when the captian of england came runing up to Howard Webb to tell him to send the vice captian and england team mate i could not believe what i was seeing its no wonder Gerrard went berserk and crazy at Rio Ferdinand how a fellow pro can do that never mind a england team mate is beyond me at worst at was a yellow card offence but Webb was influenced and the man utd players knew he would and this joker sends him off unbelievable he should not ref in the premier lge again!
- Paul Smith, Leeds, 10/1/2011 07:22
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Jamie there is no denying the class and pedigree of king kenny as manager he has been there seen it and done it although it was a long time ago he still knows the game inside out and thats not something that will ever leave him i persoanly feel the club should never have under any circumstances got rid of Rafa Benitez he was a class act and did a fine job its a shame the media hacks and pundits along with one or two players from within the club wanted him out such is the player power in the game too much negative influence has gathered momentum in recent years by certain homegrown players who have been at the club a long time i wish kenny the very best he is a top man i would be suprised if somebody like Jamie Carragher took the job as a coach would kenny really want somebody like him who screams and shouts at the players when he makes mistake after mistake himself he is a nagative influence around the players somebody like Jason Macateer would be a far better option for Kenny!
- Paul Smith, Leeds, 10/1/2011 07:11

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

I think it's very easy to misread slow motion replays, and real time ones aren't much use unless they're from the exact angle to show the contact. These camera positions obviously can't be pre-determined. So... you see it all the time, players going down and so-called experts saying there's no contact or that the player clipped his own heels etc. The reality is that even a feint touch on your leg either when you're about to take your next stride or in mid stride impede's your movement. The reason players have increasingly opted to go to ground is because otherwise these fouls are either ignored or not seen by the referee. From Berbatov's point of view he's been impeded, and he said afterwards that it knocked him off balance. The only question is whether there was intent on Agger's part. Clearly, he intended to make the challenge. Clearly he was late. So why is there still a debate as to whether or not it's a foul? The real question people are asking is whether it was worth a penalty. And so the debate is whether Webb has decided he couldn't not give it. Judging by the outcry the consensus seems to be that he was wrong, and that he could've not given it even though it was clearly a foul. Hope this clears it up.

In any case, watching the highlights it seems the lino gave it. Webb took his time, looked over, saw the linesman flagging and gave a pen.
Yet Andy Townsend spent about ten minutes explaining why Webb couldn't have seen it.

Originally Posted by Zorg

In any case, watching the highlights it seems the lino gave it. Webb took his time, looked over, saw the linesman flagging and gave a pen.
Yet Andy Townsend spent about ten minutes explaining why Webb couldn't have seen it.

tbh i had no idea why it was a penalty as I wasn't looking


great pen though

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

tbh i had no idea why it was a penalty as I wasn't looking


great pen though

giggs has done well with penalties on the rare occasions he's taken them - put two away against spurs last season, scored the decisive one in moscow, then yesterday...

always keeps his head which is a skill in itself

Originally Posted by taff

giggs has done well with penalties on the rare occasions he's taken them - put two away against spurs last season, scored the decisive one in moscow, then yesterday...

always keeps his head which is a skill in itself

I actually love Giggsy.
Proper love for the man.

Originally Posted by Switching Off

ffs some bitter on facebook put "There's only one Neil Young" and I liked it

Because you've already got a heart of gold!

Spot on, Bors. The penalty was soft, but it was technically a penalty. If it was against us, i'd be furious. But i'd be more furious at the actions of my defender. I always look to the elements we can control rather than the ones we can't. Take the Bowyer equaliser a couple of weeks ago. Yes, blatant foul, handball, all that poppy#@&%!, but what annoyed me more was OUR dealing of the situation. We didn't put the game to bed, we allowed them to freely cross into our box. Essentially, we invited trouble. Bad decisions will happen, but you can't control that. What Liverpool can (and should) control is reckless decision making by senior players. Why. . . WHY is Agger not showing Berbs down the line, WHY is he turned so easily and WHY does he leave his leg there for Berbs to go over? It may have been soft, but the worst decision of that passage of play came from him, not Webb. He gave Webb a decision to make. After thirty £#%&!in seconds. All i've heard all day is 'well it would'nt have been given at the other end'. No, it wouldn't. And dya know why? because we're not stupid enough to create a situation like that in the box after, oh let me see, THIRTY seconds of play! And It wouldn't have happened because you never got in the box, £#%&!os! Would Rio have been turned that easily? No. Why? Because he was imperious all afternoon. And no Liverpool player delivered a ball as good as the one to Berbs, or controlled it as well as he did. As for Gerrard? Well, less controversial, but another example of appalling decision making. They were doing ok, he was doing ok and they were very much in the game. So why he felt the need to do that, as a 'leader', i've no idea. That ended the game. That's two game turning moments from two of their most experienced players. These are the things you can control. You made all your own problems, guys. You got what you deserved. Or maybe Webb's a United fan.

Originally Posted by otbarney

Because you've already got a heart of gold!

You're really harvesting the puns tbf

Originally Posted by Harri Jaffa

You're really harvesting the puns tbf

Match and non-match going reds, what are your opinions of Carrick?

I thought he had a poor game yesterday, what with the rushed passing that put other players under pressure, and negative backwards passing.

In my opinion he's a much better player than that, and just needs some confidence to get back playing well.

However, from reading this thread, the consensus seems to be that he had a really good game. So am I just being anti-Carrick or something?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

I think it's very easy to misread slow motion replays, and real time ones aren't much use unless they're from the exact angle to show the contact. These camera positions obviously can't be pre-determined. So... you see it all the time, players going down and so-called experts saying there's no contact or that the player clipped his own heels etc. The reality is that even a feint touch on your leg either when you're about to take your next stride or in mid stride impede's your movement. The reason players have increasingly opted to go to ground is because otherwise these fouls are either ignored or not seen by the referee. From Berbatov's point of view he's been impeded, and he said afterwards that it knocked him off balance. The only question is whether there was intent on Agger's part. Clearly, he intended to make the challenge. Clearly he was late. So why is there still a debate as to whether or not it's a foul? The real question people are asking is whether it was worth a penalty. And so the debate is whether Webb has decided he couldn't not give it. Judging by the outcry the consensus seems to be that he was wrong, and that he could've not given it even though it was clearly a foul. Hope this clears it up.

Word throbbers