Pushing on from this season and looking back...

Ok, let's hope I'm not tempting fate but what do you see as the main reasons we didn't push on from 02/03? I've been tempted in the past to just blame Chelsea for it all but other clubs, like Liverpool, brought in players after that (Alonso, Sissoko) that would have solved our problems in midfield that were brewing at the time. The talk about our interest in Larsson over many years has also got me wondering about why we didn't opt to bring in two forwards of his ilk anyway?

If Ferguson is staying after this season, has he the young players in place to ensure we'll continue to challenge?

Principally, will we see a Utd side that doesn't have to go to Anfield and rely on tactics and luck to beat that Liverpool side next year?

I've been proved wrong about this year, we've challenged when i couldn't imagine it but there's serious problems in the squad still.

Originally Posted by celtbion

what do you see as the main reasons we didn't push on from 02/03?

fergie. and you forget that the last title was won in spite of fergie, too. poor tactics, failure to replace ageing players, last kick of a dying horse. same again this time. and now we've got the debt to add. nice one. enjoy this one (if we win it.... since we've got our noses in front, we've played well within ourselves. typical £#%&!ing fergie).

Originally Posted by jem

fergie. and you forget that the last title was won in spite of fergie, too. poor tactics, failure to replace ageing players, last kick of a dying horse. same again this time. and now we've got the debt to add. nice one. enjoy this one (if we win it.... since we've got our noses in front, we've played well within ourselves. typical £#%&!ing fergie).

That team had more quality overall than this one though and less serious problems with the age of the squad.

I'm concerned with Queiroz saying that Giggs could play for another few years when the player himself doesn't sound so sure. We are a hoary old team right now and, stamina levels aside, it's standing to us over a league campaign but we will need to get some young blood in even if the likes of Evans, Simpson, Foster and Gibson turn out well.

I just wonder is it going to be a question of aping Bolton for a few years, patching together squads each season rather than giving the new generation of lads a run because we can't afford to miss even one CL campaign?

United were in the hunt for Alonso a while before Liverpool stole in. Would have made a huge difference to United's fortunes at that time had we bought him.

Plus those scouse bastards wouldn't have another ECL in their cabinet without him.

Here's some:

Over-reliance on Roy keane, who was clearly past-it after 2003.

Selling Becks with (then) no replacement. Ronaldo was young and raw, not there yet.

Trying to be 'clever' in the transfer market by signing the likes of Djemba-Djemba and Klebershite who were, to put it mildly, disasters.

Over reliance on Ruud to get us all our goals.

No decent keeper.

Scholes not being 100% right for nigh on 2 years.

Chelsea going out to basically sabotage all our transfer targets.

A truly exceptional Arsenal team.

Our manager being obsessed with cat-and-mouse euro tactics.

Originally Posted by celtbion

The talk about our interest in Larsson over many years has also got me wondering about why we didn't opt to bring in two forwards of his ilk anyway?

If Ferguson is staying after this season, has he the young players in place to ensure we'll continue to challenge?

Principally, will we see a Utd side that doesn't have to go to Anfield and rely on tactics and luck to beat that Liverpool side next year?
.

He brought in Ronaldo, Saha and Rooney inside just over a year of that title - not bad by any standards. I'm pretty confident about the current crop of youngsters as well (at least 4 of them look ready) and really want them to be unleashed - at least to take up the slack in the squad. As for the dippers game, it was a typical game between the two teams. This time it was them who built a momentum but I always thought we had a goal in us and so it proved in the end.

Originally Posted by jem

(if we win it.... since we've got our noses in front, we've played well within ourselves. typical £#%&!ing fergie).

We've been top for virtually the entire season

Originally Posted by celtbion

I just wonder is it going to be a question of aping Bolton for a few years, patching together squads each season rather than giving the new generation of lads a run because we can't afford to miss even one CL campaign?

Not sure about the Bolton comparison But this is obviously the worry - I just really want the young lads, if they're good enough, to get their chance. A signing or two is fine by me (any one or all of Hargreaves, Bale and Torres would be nice) but the kids are United. Set them free, Fergie!

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Not sure about the Bolton comparison But this is obviously the worry - I just really want the young lads, if they're good enough, to get their chance. A signing or two is fine by me (any one or all of Hargreaves, Bale and Torres would be nice) but the kids are United. Set them free, Fergie!

It's this Larsson deal. It's fine in the short term and when done sparingly but I'd hate to see that sort of stop gap become too common.

We might see another like that in the summer mind. I think we could afford someone at 30 or 31 years of age, for example. It can be good when the guy is a good mentor to a young understudy but the guy still has to be able to perform while he's here.

If you look at the centre-mid situation. Clearly the first preference appears to be Hargreaves. With young Gibson coming through and this likely to be Scholes last season as a first team regular, there might be a place for a guy a little younger than Scholes but maybe looking for a short term contract for a season or two to come in as well. I just worry Scholes is only one more bad injury away from calling it quits and then we could be back with O'Shea or Fletcher in the reckoning as Gibson probably won't be quite ready.

We'll need to do a bit of horsetrading in the summer possibly, even if these kids make the grade.

Fergie was too loyal to his big players, namely Keane and Ruud. They both £#%&!ed up our traditional style of play as well as the team spirit. He did eventually kick them both out and we look more like our old selves.

Cant blame Fergie though, said it before but sometimes you reach a point where a group of players can't take you any further and its time to move on. Its the transitional phase and it was inevitable that we'd have a period where we adapt from the old team (arguably our best side ever) to the new team. I call it the "inevitable decline" of all great sides who eventually become the victim of their own success which ends up holding their club back.

To summarise, our players were too good to sell or relegate to the bench, and anyone we bought in was not good enough to dislodge any of them. The best we could do was purchase squad players, but lack of chances destroyed them. You don't spend £15m on a midfielder if he's gonna be Schole's understudy. So while you criticise Fergie's actions in the transfer market (and I do too) it was kind of his only option.

Apart from forcibly breaking up the team and rebuilding it - but how do you break up that amazing midfield quartet or ditch someone like Ruud?

Not really thought about the Larsson deal as anything other than jumping at a one-off chance to get a bit of high class cover for the winter. I'm pretty sure there's gonna be a striker coming in in the summer. Hopefully Rossi will get his chance as well and we'll be sorted. If the strikeforce doesn't do the business then, then there can't be any complaints as far as negligence goes. On the other hand, if Rossi is let go, no new striker comes in, and we end up with Smith up front, then there'll be uproar!

Centre mid next season will be the same as this, plus Gibson and a new signing. I also expect to see Hewson get a bit of a go. I get a bit giddy over the young player's quality, but this lad looks class and composure personified. 18 I think he is, so no reason he can't get some game time imo.

The key is to win something this year, hopefully the league. The cynics will tell you that that'd buy time for the management - and the owners. But it'll do something much more important than that: it'll allow some of the young players their chance to play for United and show us what they can do. Priceless.

Originally Posted by celtbion

Ok, let's hope I'm not tempting fate but what do you see as the main reasons we didn't push on from 02/03? I've been tempted in the past to just blame Chelsea for it all but other clubs, like Liverpool, brought in players after that (Alonso, Sissoko) that would have solved our problems in midfield that were brewing at the time. The talk about our interest in Larsson over many years has also got me wondering about why we didn't opt to bring in two forwards of his ilk anyway?

If Ferguson is staying after this season, has he the young players in place to ensure we'll continue to challenge?

Principally, will we see a Utd side that doesn't have to go to Anfield and rely on tactics and luck to beat that Liverpool side next year?

I've been proved wrong about this year, we've challenged when i couldn't imagine it but there's serious problems in the squad still.

We sold Beckham & Veron and replaced them with shite like kleberson, fletcher (the @#%&!), djembaX2 and miller. Everyone could see Keane was coming to the end of his career, we should have been £#%&!ing ruthless and paid top dollar to secure a world class midfielder, but we didn't. We were still a PLC at the time and had the resources to take on chelsea, but failed spectacularly. We then repeated all these mistakes again in the summer of 2004.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

We sold Beckham & Veron and replaced them with shite like kleberson, fletcher (the @#%&!), djembaX2 and miller. Everyone could see Keane was coming to the end of his career, we should have been £#%&!ing ruthless and paid top dollar to secure a world class midfielder, but we didn't. We were still a PLC at the time and had the resources to take on chelsea, but failed spectacularly. We then repeated all these mistakes again in the summer of 2004.

This is where the inevitable bit comes in. We got arguably the best central midfielder in the world in Veron, paid loads for him and he totally flopped because he couldn't break up the Keano/Scholes duo. at the same time we couldnt exactly use him as a backup player so we had to keep chopping and changing. we eventually tried to change our formation, when that failed we tried dropping Beckham.

Now do you begin to see the whirlwind of politics and evolution which left fergie only two options?

Break up the greatest team you ever saw or wait for it to show signs of decay before smashing it up and rebuilding. There was literally no way you could sign a top class Keano replacement while Keano was still at the club and have him succeed. Same for Ruud, Beckham etc. Giggs and Scholes are old enough that they might see more bench time, but I wouldnt be surprised if they pose similar problem.

What Fergie did well was plant seeds which would spout once the old hands had gone. Rooney, Ronaldo, Rossi, Evans etc. They weren't brought here to make the transition seamless, they were brought here so they could blossom once the shadow had moved on.

Well, he bought in/through four midfielders for season 2004, obviously hoping that they would grow to seamlessly replace Keane/Scholes. What on earth anyone saw in fletcher, djemba, miller etc is beyond me. That is what set us back after 2003.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Well, he bought in/through four midfielders for season 2004, obviously hoping that they would grow to seamlessly replace Keane/Scholes. What on earth anyone saw in fletcher, djemba, miller etc is beyond me. That is what set us back after 2003.

it was inevitable that anyone we signed would fail, doesn't mean we cant try of course.

fletcher could be as good as Carrick by the time he is 26, quite similar traits tbh (not sure where that leaves Carrick...)

DJDJ, Kleberson and Miller were decent champions league/international calibre when we bought them, trying to break up the Scholes/Keano duo destroyed them. All that time on the bench, all that lost confidence, injuries etc. They left worse players, as did others who failed like Cruyff who was a pretty good dutch and barca player! a few recovered like forlan and poborsky but they could've been real stars had they skipped utd and gone to another club.

strange to think that coming to utd has ruined many a footballer's career.

that is bullshit about veron.

fergie could easily have pushed keane back into a makalele-type role and left veron and scholes as slightly more advance central midfielders (keane would have lasted longer, too). he certainly could have kept cole and played him up front with ruud - cole had developed into the perfect striker for the way fergie was trying to play anyway. there were plenty of options open to him that would not have involved major restructuring of the team or playing players out of position.

there is no excuse for buying shite like forlan, kleberson and djemba djemba.... except we all know why those deals made sense for fergie.

the simple fact is that fergie didn't have a clue how to use the players he had for the benefit of united (and united was not uppermost in his list of concerns). there was no £#%&!ing inevitability. arsenal were not head and shoulders above us and nor were chelsea for the last two years. they were both very beatable. the problem was not incredible seasons by them, but that we let our standards drop. £#%&!ing hell, if you think there is any excuse for the midfield we played in the first half of last season.....

luffy, you may not want to point the finger of blame where it belongs, but that doesn't change the facts.

Originally Posted by Luffy

it was inevitable that anyone we signed would fail, doesn't mean we cant try of course.

No it wasn't

Originally Posted by Luffy

fletcher could be as good as Carrick by the time he is 26, quite similar traits tbh (not sure where that leaves Carrick...)

Please. The @#%&! has been £#%&!ing useless since he broke into the side. This season he's been just as shit as previous years. 4 £#%&!ing years and he's still shit. Can't pass, can't tackle, can't shoot. Should be £#%&!ed off this season.

Originally Posted by Luffy

DJDJ, Kleberson and Miller were decent champions league/international calibre when we bought them, trying to break up the Scholes/Keano duo destroyed them. All that time on the bench, all that lost confidence, injuries etc. They left worse players, as did others who failed like Cruyff who was a pretty good dutch and barca player! a few recovered like forlan and poborsky but they could've been real stars had they skipped utd and gone to another club.

strange to think that coming to utd has ruined many a footballer's career.

Plenty of sense there fella. Agree, those players may have had the potential, but mentally, they weren't up to the task.

We seem to have a few good prospects at the club now, if we can get the right players in (which, under the weight of glazers debt seems very unlikely), then we'll have a great chance of overtaking the scousers 18 titles within a few years. We'll see!

Originally Posted by jem

that is bullshit about veron.

fergie could easily have pushed keane back into a makalele-type role and left veron and scholes as slightly more advance central midfielders (keane would have lasted longer, too). he certainly could have kept cole and played him up front with ruud - cole had developed into the perfect striker for the way fergie was trying to play anyway. there were plenty of options open to him that would not have involved major restructuring of the team or playing players out of position.

there is no excuse for buying shite like forlan, kleberson and djemba djemba.... except we all know why those deals made sense for fergie.

the simple fact is that fergie didn't have a clue how to use the players he had for the benefit of united (and united was not uppermost in his list of concerns). there was no £#%&!ing inevitability. arsenal were not head and shoulders above us and nor were chelsea for the last two years. they were both very beatable. the problem was not incredible seasons by them, but that we let our standards drop. £#%&!ing hell, if you think there is any excuse for the midfield we played in the first half of last season.....

luffy, you may not want to point the finger of blame where it belongs, but that doesn't change the facts.

dont confuse facts with conjecture now jemmy.

a change to a diamon formation would have worked you say? where does that leave beckham and giggs? it wasnt just the central duo who were untouchable, it was the whole quartet.

during the season things got wonky and beckham found himself under pressure due to his similarity with veron, but he also had eyes on the central mid role and that mustve complicated matters too.

any switch to the makalele-system would have probably bombed as well.

yes we have been poor, yes we had a transitional period, but it was either that or fergie takes the initiative and forces out keano and ruud a year in advance. he did not have the foresight to do that, and probably did not have the players available who gave him the confidence to take such a gamble.

name one player we could have purchased back then who would have prevented the transitional phase in your opinion.

this will only repeat itself in future when we fail to replace gary neville until he becomes a liability and either volunteers his boots or fergie has to force him out. our captain wont be a squad player.

The major three problems were never really adressed by Fergie

1) Replacing Schmeichel (Until VDS)

2) Replacing Keane

3) Replacing Kidd

I think number 3 may have had more to do with the recent problems, and yes I know Kidd wasnt around for the treble etc, but look at the legacy he left behind, that youth team he nurtured has become the backbone upon what this (hopeful) premiership winning team will be built on.

Originally Posted by jem

arsenal were not head and shoulders above us and nor were chelsea for the last two years. they were both very beatable. the problem was not incredible seasons by them, but that we let our standards drop. .

Arsenal went an entire season unbeaten. Chelsea set a new record for least goals conceded, and a new record for most points and most wins in a Premiership season.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Plenty of sense there fella. Agree, those players may have had the potential, but mentally, they weren't up to the task.

That's the way I see it as well; Ferguson took a punt on Miller and Bellion, Djemba bottled it, and Kleberson had way too much going on all at once to have his head right. I've said before that kleberson was a terrific player, but a proper check on his circumstances might have ended United's interest. Then again, who knew he'd £#%&! his shoulder within a month or so of arriving?

As for Veron, what a shame. he is one of the best players I've ever seen. But he wasn't up to playing in English football and has now followed his heart and gone back home. Good luck too him. Hope he spends his Chelsea money wisely!

Originally Posted by Enjoying Insanity

The major three problems were never really adressed by Fergie

1) Replacing Schmeichel (Until VDS)

2) Replacing Keane

3) Replacing Kidd

I think number 3 may have had more to do with the recent problems, and yes I know Kidd wasnt around for the treble etc, but look at the legacy he left behind, that youth team he nurtured has become the backbone upon what this (hopeful) premiership winning team will be built on.

Eric Harrison.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Arsenal went an entire season unbeaten. Chelsea set a new record for least goals conceded, and a new record for most points and most wins in a Premiership season.

yes, and look at us now. we must have the best team ever.

except we don't, of course.