Mkhi Mouse

I find it interesting that everyone is rounding on one of the few players in the squad that can actually play football, offer some excitement and incision in the final third because he isn't thriving in the current style of play. I fear the target of your ire may be misplaced. The only sort of player that will thrive in Mkhi's role in the current set up is Fellaini, or someone of his size or stature.

Can see us watching Lukaku, Zlatan, Fellaini and Pogba all taking it in turns to be the target and hunt for knock downs, Rashford or Martial running like £#%&! defending on the left and Mkhitaryan, Mata and Lingard take it in turns wandering around wherever they find themselves, getting neck strain as the ball floats over their heads while Valencia grafts himself into an early grave on the right whilst achieving £#%&! all. Still it will be Rashford or Martial and whoever is operating in the 'free role on the right' that gets the abuse from our football sage fans.

Originally Posted by dunk

I find it interesting that everyone is rounding on one of the few players in the squad that can actually play football, offer some excitement and incision in the final third because he isn't thriving in the current style of play. I fear the target of your ire may be misplaced. The only sort of player that will thrive in Mkhi's role in the current set up is Fellaini, or someone of his size or stature.

Can see us watching Lukaku, Zlatan, Fellaini and Pogba all taking it in turns to be the target and hunt for knock downs, Rashford or Martial running like £#%&! defending on the left and Mkhitaryan, Mata and Lingard take it in turns wandering around wherever they find themselves, getting neck strain as the ball floats over their heads while Valencia grafts himself into an early grave on the right whilst achieving £#%&! all. Still it will be Rashford or Martial and whoever is operating in the 'free role on the right' that gets the abuse from our football sage fans.

Originally Posted by dunk

I find it interesting that everyone is rounding on one of the few players in the squad that can actually play football, offer some excitement and incision in the final third because he isn't thriving in the current style of play. I fear the target of your ire may be misplaced. The only sort of player that will thrive in Mkhi's role in the current set up is Fellaini, or someone of his size or stature.

Can see us watching Lukaku, Zlatan, Fellaini and Pogba all taking it in turns to be the target and hunt for knock downs, Rashford or Martial running like f*** defending on the left and Mkhitaryan, Mata and Lingard take it in turns wandering around wherever they find themselves, getting neck strain as the ball floats over their heads while Valencia grafts himself into an early grave on the right whilst achieving f*** all. Still it will be Rashford or Martial and whoever is operating in the 'free role on the right' that gets the abuse from our football sage fans.

Plenty of truth in that though tbf. Part of the team's job is to feed the creative players.There are probably one or two doubts about Mkhi's mentality, but ffs we bypass his area of the pitch. The reason he disappears is because we boot the ball over his head most of the time.

You'd assume Mou's persistence with him is due to his ability to spring the break, but he isn't used that way. He will always show for the ball, so when someone like him is touching the ball 25 times in the game or whatever it was, we aren't finding him enough.

Originally Posted by dunk

I think the output of the 2 this season alone proves that I don't need to respond to that quite ridiculous statement tbh.

You can't disregard your logic for one and not the other, seeing as they share the same positons and would suffer from exactly the same issues which you have claimed. There is also a marginal difference in ability, many would even argue that Mata is the better player.

Truth is, neither are good enough to start regular games at United.

Originally Posted by Coracao

You can't disregard your logic for one and not the other, seeing as they share the same positons and would suffer from exactly the same issues which you have claimed. There is also a marginal difference in ability, many would even argue that Mata is the better player.

Truth is, neither are good enough to start regular games at United.

I referenced Mata getting shit for the same reason in the same post tbf. Mata better Most overrated player I've ever clapped eyes on. Utter nothingness. Makes Ozil look like £#%&!ing Robbo.

Personally think Mkhi could be a bloody good attacking weapon for United, but given the static nature of our forwards and our manager's penchant for having his club footed CB's aim for the stars, he's bloody unlikely to thrive.

Originally Posted by dunk

I referenced Mata getting shit for the same reason in the same post tbf. Mata better Most overrated player I've ever clapped eyes on. Utter nothingness. Makes Ozil look like £#%&!ing Robbo.

Personally think Mkhi could be a bloody good attacking weapon for United, but given the static nature of our forwards and our manager's penchant for having his club footed CB's aim for the stars, he's bloody unlikely to thrive.

His Spanish mate is more overrated.

And yes, i've yet to see anything from the Armenian that indicates he is any better. And I don't rate Mata.

Bring back Kagawa.

He got a few goals and assists early in the season but even in them games he was poor at times. The stats were masking it. Dunk you can blame how we play all you want, the fact is he loses the ball. Constantly. Compare him to Silva ffs. Nowhere near him.

Originally Posted by MUFC One Love

He got a few goals and assists early in the season but even in them games he was poor at times. The stats were masking it. Dunk you can blame how we play all you want, the fact is he loses the ball. Constantly. Compare him to Silva ffs. Nowhere near him.

He doesn't mate, Siders literally just proved that

It's perception, if we only give him the ball sporadically and when we do it's when he's surrounded or has no options, of course he's going to lose it. Then you have to look at how the side is getting the ball to him. It's straight forward. You wouldn't get a striker like Thierry Henry then ask him to do what Crouch does, for instance, you have to at least try and utilise their strengths, not accentuate their weaknesses.

Originally Posted by dunk

He doesn't mate, Siders literally just proved that

It's perception, if we only give him the ball sporadically and when we do it's when he's surrounded or has no options, of course he's going to lose it. Then you have to look at how the side is getting the ball to him. It's straight forward. You wouldn't get a striker like Thierry Henry then ask him to do what Crouch does, for instance, you have to at least try and utilise their strengths, not accentuate their weaknesses.

He has the ball, he has two options, Lukaku and Rashford. Fair point, it is the way we have played recently.


However, that doesn't excuse the fact he is so easily dispossessed, he's weak on the ball and he's afraid to put himself into a tackle!

Originally Posted by dunk

He doesn't mate, Siders literally just proved that

It's perception, if we only give him the ball sporadically and when we do it's when he's surrounded or has no options, of course he's going to lose it. Then you have to look at how the side is getting the ball to him. It's straight forward. You wouldn't get a striker like Thierry Henry then ask him to do what Crouch does, for instance, you have to at least try and utilise their strengths, not accentuate their weaknesses.

This is the crux of the matter.

Even with all of our players available, we look best placed to line up with a 4-3-3 to get the best out of all of the better footballers in the side. Lukaku wants to be the focal point on his own, not in a 2. Mkhi should be right side, not a no.10. Pogba is infinitely more effective in a midfield 3. A flat back 4 rather than wing backs suits Valencia... shame the left back area is problematic but still.

Mourinho's tactical rigidity pisses me off. If he doesn't have his first choice, trusted XI, we don't play football. He puts the brakes on & we are stuck with 6 defending, 4 attacking & no ability to manage the transition from back to front (or willingness from the players, mincers) so it goes long.

With a side that could contain bags of pace, we are bereft of appetite to use it. Seemingly intent on prioritising shape over intent to inflict damage. Pragmatism and defending aren't dirty words, shitting the bed & refusing to take a risk are in my world. Yet this is the guy we knew we were getting, this is the style. Historically he's been at clubs that had far stronger squads & hadn't needed to be dragged kicking & screaming into the world of winning football matches. There's a lot of work for him to do, I don't especially enjoy the football but you can see the bigger picture, he needs those players with %@#$&!s to step forward, you need mental toughness, you have to want to win above absolutely everything else. The football comes later, it's not a million miles from the Utd of Fergie, of Keane saying we'll match you for effort & the class will tell. If we're not matching sides for effort, then there's not as much quality as we used to have (!!!!) but there's certainly the promise of some of it, with Rashford, Martial & Pogba in the first XI I'd love to see them find a way of clicking... if only Mourinho could get them all on the pitch to play together. Sometime's the only thing really stopping him is his own decision making.

Originally Posted by Coracao

You can't disregard your logic for one and not the other, seeing as they share the same positons and would suffer from exactly the same issues which you have claimed. There is also a marginal difference in ability, many would even argue that Mata is the better player.

Truth is, neither are good enough to start regular games at United.

I think throughout the time Dunk has criticised Mata, I don't recall it being an issue of him disappearing. Mata is constantly involved but he can be very safe and certainly can be bullied or harrassed either out of possession or into going backwards. He's also quite slow.

Difference with Mkhi is getting him into the game. Again, I don't think he's static or fails to show for it, but when your playmaker is barely touching the ball questions have to be asked about his positioning or the team's supply line to him in the right areas. Seeing how often we bypass the middle it's no real conundrum.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I think throughout the time Dunk has criticised Mata, I don't recall it being an issue of him disappearing. Mata is constantly involved but he can be very safe and certainly can be bullied or harrassed either out of possession or into going backwards. He's also quite slow.

Difference with Mkhi is getting him into the game. Again, I don't think he's static or fails to show for it, but when your playmaker is barely touching the ball questions have to be asked about his positioning or the team's supply line to him in the right areas. Seeing how often we bypass the middle it's no real conundrum.

This.

And the harder it is for him to have an impact, the less he sees the ball, the pressure cranks up and he makes more mistakes.

It's not just Mickey either. We play so infrequently to our strengths.

Wingers at full back. Matic doing his and Herrera job.

Mkjitaryan always looks like he should be 10-15 yards further forward.

And as many have pointed out, the ball is bypassing him a lot of the time.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I think throughout the time Dunk has criticised Mata, I don't recall it being an issue of him disappearing. Mata is constantly involved but he can be very safe and certainly can be bullied or harrassed either out of possession or into going backwards. He's also quite slow.

Difference with Mkhi is getting him into the game. Again, I don't think he's static or fails to show for it, but when your playmaker is barely touching the ball questions have to be asked about his positioning or the team's supply line to him in the right areas. Seeing how often we bypass the middle it's no real conundrum.

The exact same things he pointed out in terms of this 'style of play' apply to Mata, I find it a little daft to suggest otherwise.

I also don't buy into this notion that the Armenian is constantly trying to get himself into the game and is being ignored so that we can just hoof it forwards instead. He is a major part of the problem himself.

Originally Posted by Baron

This is the crux of the matter.

Even with all of our players available, we look best placed to line up with a 4-3-3 to get the best out of all of the better footballers in the side. Lukaku wants to be the focal point on his own, not in a 2. Mkhi should be right side, not a no.10. Pogba is infinitely more effective in a midfield 3. A flat back 4 rather than wing backs suits Valencia... shame the left back area is problematic but still.

Mourinho's tactical rigidity pisses me off. If he doesn't have his first choice, trusted XI, we don't play football. He puts the brakes on & we are stuck with 6 defending, 4 attacking & no ability to manage the transition from back to front (or willingness from the players, mincers) so it goes long.

With a side that could contain bags of pace, we are bereft of appetite to use it. Seemingly intent on prioritising shape over intent to inflict damage. Pragmatism and defending aren't dirty words, shitting the bed & refusing to take a risk are in my world. Yet this is the guy we knew we were getting, this is the style. Historically he's been at clubs that had far stronger squads & hadn't needed to be dragged kicking & screaming into the world of winning football matches. There's a lot of work for him to do, I don't especially enjoy the football but you can see the bigger picture, he needs those players with balls to step forward, you need mental toughness, you have to want to win above absolutely everything else. The football comes later, it's not a million miles from the Utd of Fergie, of Keane saying we'll match you for effort & the class will tell. If we're not matching sides for effort, then there's not as much quality as we used to have (!!!!) but there's certainly the promise of some of it, with Rashford, Martial & Pogba in the first XI I'd love to see them find a way of clicking... if only Mourinho could get them all on the pitch to play together. Sometime's the only thing really stopping him is his own decision making.

Good post.

For me a really important issue at the end of the 15/16 season was to prioritise developing Martial and Rashford as key figures, such was the frightening potential they were showing. A 4-3-3 with three forwards would allow the signing of a more experienced versatile forward to loosen the burden on them. Someone like Mane or Aubameyang ideal; gives great opportunity for interchanging and flexibility.

Mourinho was never going to play such a system, and was always going to prioritise signing a striker who, as you put it, would be more of a fixed focal point of the team. They're different players, but both Lukaku and Zlat fit that description.

Not only is it an impediment to developing Martial and Rashford, both individually and together, it makes us more one dimensional than is neccesary.

Originally Posted by Coracao

The exact same things he pointed out in terms of this 'style of play' apply to Mata, I find it a little daft to suggest otherwise.

I also don't buy into this notion that the Armenian is constantly trying to get himself into the game and is being ignored so that we can just hoof it forwards instead. He is a major part of the problem himself.

Erm, I wouldn't have said Mkhi and Mata have remotely similar styles of play tbh. In fairness to Mata, he always wants the ball and does well finding space to receive it, it's just he moves so £#%&!ing slowly that he's easily nullified and forced backwards when he does have it, so he becomes this infuriating character that appears, takes 2 touches and then knocks it safely backwards or to the side, achieving absolutely nothing 99% of the time, as such teams are delighted for him to have the ball anywhere but in the penalty box. Mkhi likes to carry the ball, use his pace, pick passes for runners etc. He's looked his best when doing exactly that.

I think it's fair to say we use neither to their strengths though, don't think we've ever really got a tune out of Mata despite his goals.

Originally Posted by Coracao

The exact same things he pointed out in terms of this 'style of play' apply to Mata, I find it a little daft to suggest otherwise.

I also don't buy into this notion that the Armenian is constantly trying to get himself into the game and is being ignored so that we can just hoof it forwards instead. He is a major part of the problem himself.

How much of a problem was he at Dortmund when played in a system that suited him?

This continual blame of individual players on here is just delusion from people unwilling to see the bigger picture.

Originally Posted by dunk

Erm, I wouldn't have said Mkhi and Mata have remotely similar styles of play tbh. In fairness to Mata, he always wants the ball and does well finding space to receive it, it's just he moves so £#%&!ing slowly that he's easily nullified and forced backwards when he does have it, so he becomes this infuriating character that appears, takes 2 touches and then knocks it safely backwards or to the side, achieving absolutely nothing 99% of the time, as such teams are delighted for him to have the ball anywhere but in the penalty box. Mkhi likes to carry the ball, use his pace, pick passes for runners etc. He's looked his best when doing exactly that.

I think it's fair to say we use neither to their strengths though, don't think we've ever really got a tune out of Mata despite his goals.

Cheers for that, but I never said they were similar in style. But that they take up similar positions on the pitch. In fact, they often alternate in terms of who is where. Then apply your logic to these said players, who are fairly similar in stature;

I find it interesting that everyone is rounding on one of the few players in the squad that can actually play football, offer some excitement and incision in the final third because he isn't thriving in the current style of play. I fear the target of your ire may be misplaced. The only sort of player that will thrive in Mkhi's role in the current set up is Fellaini, or someone of his size or stature.

Originally Posted by Coracao

Cheers for that, but I never said they were similar in style. But that they take up similar positions on the pitch. In fact, they often alternate in terms of who is where. Then apply your logic to these said players, who are fairly similar in stature;

I find it interesting that everyone is rounding on one of the few players in the squad that can actually play football, offer some excitement and incision in the final third because he isn't thriving in the current style of play. I fear the target of your ire may be misplaced. The only sort of player that will thrive in Mkhi's role in the current set up is Fellaini, or someone of his size or stature.

You are making no sense pal. I said Mata suffers from the style of play as well

Glory glory

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Good post.

For me a really important issue at the end of the 15/16 season was to prioritise developing Martial and Rashford as key figures, such was the frightening potential they were showing. A 4-3-3 with three forwards would allow the signing of a more experienced versatile forward to loosen the burden on them. Someone like Mane or Aubameyang ideal; gives great opportunity for interchanging and flexibility.

Mourinho was never going to play such a system, and was always going to prioritise signing a striker who, as you put it, would be more of a fixed focal point of the team. They're different players, but both Lukaku and Zlat fit that description.

Not only is it an impediment to developing Martial and Rashford, both individually and together, it makes us more one dimensional than is neccesary.

I'd agree to an extent... their footballing education on the pitch isn't exactly flourishing into worldie territory just yet. But I think the mental aspect of the game, the ability to be self-motivated, to take responsibility. To work hard, always, every game... that quality is being instilled in them. It will serve them far better than having some helmet like Klopp allowing them to burst forward & not understand the implications of when they should go, when they should hold [/John Barnes] etc.

Mourinho really should have been given the job after Fergie, I still find it £#%&!ing staggering that he was available & we ended up with that @#%&! instead. What we have now is a man struggling to instil the basic mentality of a top side, the football is suffering of course, but I'm fairly sure he's a necessary evil in order to restore the club to upper echelons. I'm struggling to see this side win either the league or the CL this season, the options are just too thin as we've seen with Pogba out. Unless we get extremely lucky & have a fit & healthy squad for the remainder of the season, it'll always be this stop start approach where any dent to the optimal XI he wants results in rigidity & formulaic football.

On the plus side, it's Mourinho, so he'll still likely find a way to win something & then he'll go mental & we can see who follows him. I can't believe the hierarchy aren't already laying some serious groundwork for Pochettino.