Mourinho issues May deadline.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Come on. Ask any Cardie on here where they thought we would be this year and it wasn't 5th. Siders, who most defer to, had us winning the league and certainly not bombing out of Europe in the way we did.

What we've had is huge revisionism as the shit has hit the fan - or our eyes more precisely. Or arguments where we've had to accept the point that the young lads in this squad are inconsistent but then can't criticise van gaal for the make up of the squad being aots/over saturated with youngsters.

Against this, I accept that there's been an improvement post Christmas and the fa cup run is encouraging. We've also got some decent raw talent for the next manager to work on and I hope that whoever it is sticks with those lads.

Some of the lvg shit we've had though has been inexcusable though despite plenty on here constantly excusing it.

I'll always aim for the title. That's the beauty of pre-season optimism Same way I'll usually fancy us before any game.

When breaking it down though I distinctly remember saying it depended massively on Rooney, as we'd left too much reliance on him.

Originally Posted by utd99

Correct.

You would think that after taking the piss out of Liverpool and Arsenal for so long regarding their ridiculous 'just wait 'til next year' attitude that we would bend over backwards to avoid the same trap, but some of us have already bought into it hook, line and sinker. For them United are now on the same 'cusp' as Arsenal have been for ten years and Liverpool for twenty.

But this isn't ten years, or twenty-five. This is advocating that a club turned upside down having a dodgy few months in the middle of a campaign is recoverable. If - and it's a huge if - we got top four and won the FA Cup I think that would be a very respectable recovery from where we were in January. And we're supposed to be looking at progress iirc.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I don't think it's anything like nailed on he's staying btw. He's too unpopular to be certainly secure. Very much 50/50 imo.

But there's plenty of logic in keeping him. Again, I don't actually think he's doing badly with what he has atm. The absolute whirlwind of change is something that will take time to settle down again. The squad management has been messy, but we now have a younger squad, with some great potential. It's in better shape than it was 12 months ago.

Only if you refuse to consider the actual decisions he has made, and the actual way his team have played for most of his tenure and the actual position we are in. Those are concrete and damning; the better future is undetermined, incalculable and unprovable, so his supporters choose to focus on the latter.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'll always aim for the title. That's the beauty of pre-season optimism Same way I'll usually fancy us before any game.

When breaking it down though I distinctly remember saying it depended massively on Rooney, as we'd left too much reliance on him.



But this isn't ten years, or twenty-five. This is advocating that a club turned upside down having a dodgy few months in the middle of a campaign is recoverable. If - and it's a huge if - we got top four and won the FA Cup I think that would be a very respectable recovery from where we were in January. And we're supposed to be looking at progress iirc.

It's funny how you choose to view the thing we needed to 'recover' from as having nothing to do with van Gaal; almost like an earthquake or a mudslide.

Subtle, but obvious I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by utd99

Only if you refuse to consider the actual decisions he has made, and the actual way his team have played for most of his tenure and the actual position we are in. Those are concrete and damning; the better future is undetermined, incalculable and unprovable, so his supporters choose to focus on the latter.

Decisions are not concrete fact tbf; they're open to interpretation and he's had reasons for all of them. What's also concrete is the disruption of the season by injuries. But that type of factual stuff is also not focused on by those who would rather look at the result than the cause. As if it's Van Gaal's fault we were without 14 players for two months.

Anyway, Mourinho had an even worse season. And he definitely caused it all himself

And let's not even go into you directing the timeframe we all have to use to gauge progress. I made the mistake of thinking we could use two years, when in fact we are only allowed two months.

Originally Posted by utd99

And let's not even go into you directing the timeframe we all have to use to gauge progress. I made the mistake of thinking we could use two years, when in fact we are only allowed two months.

Most were happy enough with the progress last Autumn, no? 7th to 4th to looking like title challengers? Okay the football wasn't great but we scored plenty of goals around September time and at that stage I don't think anyone felt LvG had taken us backwards.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Decisions are not concrete fact tbf; they're open to interpretation and he's had reasons for all of them. What's also concrete is the disruption of the season by injuries. But that type of factual stuff is also not focused on by those who would rather look at the result than the cause. As if it's Van Gaal's fault we were without 14 players for two months.

Anyway, Mourinho had an even worse season. And he definitely caused it all himself

Of course they are; £#%&!ing siders.

In retrospect, was Di Maria a good or bad decision? Why does the rest of the world have to live or die by their decisions, but to van Gaal decisions are some sort of indefinable quantum state? Louie Schroedinger..

Originally Posted by utd99

Of course they are; £#%&!ing siders.

In retrospect, was Di Maria a good or bad decision? Why does the rest of the world have to live or die by their decisions, but to van Gaal decisions are some sort of indefinable quantum state? Louie Schroedinger..

I meant that whether decisions were good, bad or justifiable is not factual. They're open to interpretation.

His decision to spend potentially £60m odd on Anthony Martial was discredited by many at the time iirc.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I meant that whether decisions were good, bad or justifiable is not factual. They're open to interpretation.

His decision to spend potentially £60m odd on Anthony Martial was discredited by many at the time iirc.

No; no, they're really not. Not by the universal standards for measuring outcomes that the rest of humanity uses.

For some reason you are trying to equate the uncertainty of an outcome before you make a decision with the measurable results afterwards. If this weren't you, I would be convinced I was being wound up.

So Depay and Martial were bought for roughly the same reason, right? Are you seriously telling me that vg cannot judged on the outcomes (so far) in a concrete factual manner?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I don't think it's anything like nailed on he's staying btw. He's too unpopular to be certainly secure. Very much 50/50 imo.

But there's plenty of logic in keeping him. Again, I don't actually think he's doing badly with what he has atm. The absolute whirlwind of change is something that will take time to settle down again. The squad management has been messy, but we now have a younger squad, with some great potential. It's in better shape than it was 12 months ago.

I know you've been defending the bloke but this is still surprising to read.

Originally Posted by rebelcountyred

He got lucky with the kids this season, would they have got their opportunities if we had less injuries or if he had strenghtened areas like CB and rb like he should have?. Anyway it is the youth team coaches that should be getting the credit for the bright youngsters coming through not Lvg.

Yes, they'd have got their opportunities at some stage. For Fosu Mensah, rewind six years ago to Van Gaal playing a 17-year-old midfielder called David Alaba at left-back in Champions League knockout games (youngest debutante in Bayern's history) and telling those who doubted him that if Alaba stayed there he'd be the best full-back in the world by the time he was 21.

For Rashford read Thomas Mueller, who hadn't made a senior start for Bayern when he took over and was even being tipped to be sold, but once the decks were cleared by £#%&!ing off Luca Toni, Mueller was quickly installed as a first choice, with Van Gaal declaring that he was his first name on the teamsheet and would play every match.

I know people don't like past references, but these things follow Van Gaal around and it's tiresome to suggest it's a coincidence.

I don't understand why Real Madrid can fartarse around with managers but we fell off a £#%&!ing cliff just coz daddy has left.

Answer: Moyes.

But no! We're just SHIT, apparently.

Not 3rd place and domestic cup level shit, proper SHIT.

Van Gaal hasn't done enough. He simply hasn't. Nor has he bought players (other than Martial - who is still a prospect) who can take us back to where we were.

It's all well and good slating Falcao and Di Maria but that is the level of player we need NOW, not in a few years after they've developed - because it's already been a few years - NOWWWWWW.

Solution: get Mourinho in and unleash the warchest.

Very, very simple.

Rahsford won't turn into stone just because we sign Griezman.

Rashford made the bench long before injuries took their toll too. As did Tuanzebe, CBJ etc.

Originally Posted by utd99

Well I heard "judge in three months", then "judge in eighteen months", but i can't say I recall "we should be about halfway done in two years".

How long do we keep doing this mate? Four years? Five? Ten? There will be excuses then too no doubt. Is there any possibility that we are so far behind schedule because of mistakes from van Gaal, or is this all just some independent phenomenon that has no control over?

Why is it more likely that United sticking with van Gaal will produce a 'Fergie' era of success than a 'Wenger' era of decade long mediocrity?

He's been making excuses for twelve years.

why are people still talking about repeating a 'fergie era'? no-one thinks like that, surely?

why do you need to set a timeframe? (please don't answer by saying you haven't, lvg has - why do YOU need to set one?)

since van gaal took over there have been various scenarios that have obviously meant the development has taken longer, not least the fact that 2 of the signings that first summer had to be moved on quickly, some of those he probably hoped he could take with him he decided on closer inspection he could not, and some of those brought in since he arrived, instead of improving our selection actually ended up sat on the treatment table with the others.

I can't believe anyone honestly wants another year of Van Gaal at the expense of Mourhino. I get that some can't stand him, his ego knows no bounds, but he's the best manager out there and to lose him would be crazy.

Originally Posted by Cream

I don't understand why Real Madrid can fartarse around with managers but we fell off a £#%&!ing cliff just coz daddy has left.

Answer: Moyes.

But no! We're just SHIT, apparently.

Not 3rd place and domestic cup level shit, proper SHIT.

Van Gaal hasn't done enough. He simply hasn't. Nor has he bought players (other than Martial - who is still a prospect) who can take us back to where we were.

It's all well and good slating Falcao and Di Maria but that is the level of player we need NOW, not in a few years after they've developed - because it's already been a few years - NOWWWWWW.

Solution: get Mourinho in and unleash the warchest.

Very, very simple.

Rahsford won't turn into stone just because we sign Griezman.

£#%&! off. build. a. team.

Originally Posted by dunk

Rashford made the bench long before injuries took their toll too. As did Tuanzebe, CBJ etc.

The youngest being forced to play is just bullshit, plain and simple...
He started youth and continued youth even with fit internationals on the bench...

Another thing the 'Outers' blindly jump on...

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

The youngest being forced to play is just bullshit, plain and simple...
He started youth and continued youth even with fit internationals on the bench...

Another thing the 'Outers' blindly jump on...

Put him in charge of the £#%&!ing youth team then.

Mourinho will pick MEN. Like Cantona, Robson, Bruce, Vidic.
How's that for identity?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Yes, they'd have got their opportunities at some stage. For Fosu Mensah, rewind six years ago to Van Gaal playing a 17-year-old midfielder called David Alaba at left-back in Champions League knockout games (youngest debutante in Bayern's history) and telling those who doubted him that if Alaba stayed there he'd be the best full-back in the world by the time he was 21.

For Rashford read Thomas Mueller, who hadn't made a senior start for Bayern when he took over and was even being tipped to be sold, but once the decks were cleared by £#%&!ing off Luca Toni, Mueller was quickly installed as a first choice, with Van Gaal declaring that he was his first name on the teamsheet and would play every match.

I know people don't like past references, but these things follow Van Gaal around and it's tiresome to suggest it's a coincidence.

He picked Will Keane ahead of Rashford, who only got in the team 3 days later because Martial broke down in the warm up.

Originally Posted by Cream

Mourinho will pick MEN. Like Cantona, Robson, Bruce, Vidic.
How's that for identity?

I love those lads but they're all a bit old now.

Originally Posted by Mr Kaboom

He picked Will Keane ahead of Rashford, who only got in the team 3 days later because Martial broke down in the warm up.

Yes, Keane was going to get his chance. And if he'd taken it he'd have stayed in for a while. My point is that Rashford was also always going to get his chance at some stage. As Dunk mentioned, he was on the bench at Watford before Christmas.