Danilo to City £26.5m

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

My opening post was about how Guardiola's rep is on the line now after spending half a billion.

You nutter

You crack on defending City's manager to the hilt on a United forum mate

I only know 3 city fans that have an IQ level high enough that enables me to speak to them on a regular basis, but every single one of them consistently referred to Fraudiola last season. Obviously it depends on your parameters, but I'm not sure how his first season could be labelled anything but a bit of a failure - in the same way that had we not won a couple of trophies and got in the CL, ours would have been a failure. It doesn't write off the next season, it's just taking a (relatively) objective view of the overall season based on the existings players available, money spent etc.

Neither manager had a brilliant season obviously, but I'm far more convinced of Mourinho's abilities compared to a man who inherited 2 of the greatest club squads in the last decade and 'won a bit' with them. What Mourinho did with Inter, for example, I would very much doubt Guardiola could have done.


If Guardiola lasts longer than Mourinho at their respective current clubs, I'd be surprised.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Nope. And neither really was Mourinho. He has regularly gone into minor detail about the amount of tactical adjustements needed. Mourinho and LvG were great friends but always conceded that they viewed the game completely differently from each other.

I'd say Guardiola underwhelmed more than failed. Same with Mou. Was it 3rd they finished? Not a disaster but below what was expected, especially as they dropped or of the race early. Also guilty of letting teams off the hook; I expect them, like United, to be more ruthless.

well it's not completely different is it, don't be ridiculous. mourinhos rejects pointless circulation and wants to keep the pitch longer. he also gives the front more licence to play. drilling that into the players after 2 years of trying to do something they couldn't grasp took up much of mourinhos efforts last season. he had to get into their heads.

guardiola had to do likewise at city, but for me most of his problems were caused by him being confronted by the probability that his philosophy will not translate to their PL unless he makes fairly dramatic adjustments - including playing longer and looking for the killer earlier, as games often have spells where they get far more stretched here than he's used to and taking advantage of those moments is often the key to an easy weekend.

I will accept your underwhelming point of view as an admission that less than 1st and with zero silverware is a complete failure with a billion pound squad.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

well it's not completely different is it, don't be ridiculous. mourinhos rejects pointless circulation and wants to keep the pitch longer. he also gives the front more licence to play. drilling that into the players after 2 years of trying to do something they couldn't grasp took up much of mourinhos efforts last season. he had to get into their heads.

guardiola had to do likewise at city, but for me most of his problems were caused by him being confronted by the probability that his philosophy will not translate to their PL unless he makes fairly dramatic adjustments - including playing longer and looking for the killer earlier, as games often have spells where they get far more stretched here than he's used to and taking advantage of those moments is often the key to an easy weekend.

I will accept your underwhelming point of view as an admission that less than 1st and with zero silverware is a complete failure with a billion pound squad.

Each manager found sides who had scrapped for 4th place the previous year. It said a lot about the respective reputations that we were immediately installed as the two title favourites. Perhaps in each case the bar was set a little too high.

I think Mourinho's changes are far more complex than you suggest. The team plan really couldn't be much more different.

Originally Posted by browser

You crack on defending City's manager to the hilt on a United forum mate

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Each manager found sides who had scrapped for 4th place the previous year. It said a lot about the respective reputations that we were immediately installed as the two title favourites. Perhaps in each case the bar was set a little too high.

I think Mourinho's changes are far more complex than you suggest. The team plan really couldn't be much more different.

i really don't think it's complex tbh but agree that it's fascinating.

i do think that being negative is always more easy than being positive, and this simple fact speaks to both philosophies equally in different ways given this group of players (the ones mourinho inherited anyway).

defeating the negative mindset of the possession for possession's sake in a group of players that only did that so much because they never mastered the change of tempo and automatic play in 2 years under van gaal has been a challenge.

adapting to a system where there's more emphasis on cancelling out a direct opponent has made the tactics far easier to get across to the players. and easier still because of the abandonment of the pointless possession game except as a fall-back to see games out, and the greater freedom offered in attacking areas.

Monaco onto FIFA for illegal poaching of mbappe .. they are gonna get £#%&!ed

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i really don't think it's complex tbh but agree that it's fascinating.

i do think that being negative is always more easy than being positive, and this simple fact speaks to both philosophies equally in different ways given this group of players (the ones mourinho inherited anyway).

defeating the negative mindset of the possession for possession's sake in a group of players that only did that so much because they never mastered the change of tempo and automatic play in 2 years under van gaal has been a challenge.

adapting to a system where there's more emphasis on cancelling out a direct opponent has made the tactics far easier to get across to the players. and easier still because of the abandonment of the pointless possession game except as a fall-back to see games out, and the greater freedom offered in attacking areas.

Yes, it's a far more basic and simple plan tactically and really isn't too hard to communicate to the players, even if you are basically changing everything. Eliminating previous habits can be difficult after they've been so strongly drilled, but given the idea was that the players hated the previous regime it should have been fairly straightforward. And certainly we looked much more a Mourinho side as the season progressed.

I'd say it's the easier side of the coin than what a Guardiola will try to implement. And personally I expect to see big progress from the start this season.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Yes, it's a far more basic and simple plan tactically and really isn't too hard to communicate to the players, even if you are basically changing everything. Eliminating previous habits can be difficult after they've been so strongly drilled, but given the idea was that the players hated the previous regime it should have been fairly straightforward. And certainly we looked much more a Mourinho side as the season progressed.

I'd say it's the easier side of the coin than what a Guardiola will try to implement. And personally I expect to see big progress from the start this season.

no, that's not fair at all. it's not a basic simple tactical plan at all. you'd struggle to come up with a single game united has ever played where they effectively man to man mark 3 or 4 players, plus match up everywhere else, plus take up a completely different structure in possession as out of it - those games against chelsea in particular were like nothing i've ever seen a united side do before and imo the tactical and technical creativity of their conception was absolutely top drawer. to get the players so well drilled to go out and produce performances like that were something that proved well beyond van gaal. personally I still put this largely down to communication, but nqat it's also down to an inability to understand or in many ways to respect the differing demands of the PL and the different requirements to survive and to exploit the flow of our game.

You £#%&!ing pair of boring @#%&!s.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

You £#%&!ing pair of boring c***s.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'd say it's the easier side of the coin than what a Guardiola will try to implement. And personally I expect to see big progress from the start this season.

Be interesting to see if the pro mo boys start re-defining slow progress as 'a process' if things start to stutter.

Really hope not. Am expecting much better things this time round.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

no, that's not fair at all. it's not a basic simple tactical plan at all. you'd struggle to come up with a single game united has ever played where they effectively man to man mark 3 or 4 players, plus match up everywhere else, plus take up a completely different structure in possession as out of it - those games against chelsea in particular were like nothing i've ever seen a united side do before and imo the tactical and technical creativity of their conception was absolutely top drawer. to get the players so well drilled to go out and produce performances like that were something that proved well beyond van gaal. personally I still put this largely down to communication, but nqat it's also down to an inability to understand or in many ways to respect the differing demands of the PL and the different requirements to survive and to exploit the flow of our game.

Well we disagree. I don't think it's tactical mastermind stuff at all tbh. It's ultra pragmatism and really is more about getting the players to buy into it rather than worrying about them understanding it.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Be interesting to see if the pro mo boys start re-defining slow progress as 'a process' if things start to stutter.

Really hope not. Am expecting much better things this time round.

As I say, for me that excuse isn't there. Van Gaal wanted to create Total Football. Mourinho wants to split the team in two and win games by being smartest on transitions either way. It shouldn't take long to implement. And again we looked a Mou side last spring. Not always an effective one, but enough that the players are completely clear on what he wants.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well we disagree. I don't think it's tactical mastermind stuff at all tbh. It's ultra pragmatism and really is more about getting the players to buy into it rather than worrying about them understanding it.



As I say, for me that excuse isn't there. Van Gaal wanted to create Total Football. Mourinho wants to split the team in two and win games by being smartest on transitions either way. It shouldn't take long to implement. And again we looked a Mou side last spring. Not always an effective one, but enough that the players are completely clear on what he wants.

We ended up playing pragmatically given the huge number of games, the increasing injuries and the narrowing odds of actually getting into the top 4. At least half the season, if not more, wasn't like that though - it was decent exciting risk taking stuff (united like) in which our forwards, being too reliant on one in particular, fluffed their lines.

I think we'll be much improved this time round - certainly when viewed against the last 3 months of last season. If we're not, we should start to call it out.

Let's not forget though - last season was our best, and most successful, since Fergie left. If anything mou has bought more time than either of the last 2 managers.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well we disagree. I don't think it's tactical mastermind stuff at all tbh. It's ultra pragmatism and really is more about getting the players to buy into it rather than worrying about them understanding it.



As I say, for me that excuse isn't there. Van Gaal wanted to create Total Football. Mourinho wants to split the team in two and win games by being smartest on transitions either way. It shouldn't take long to implement. And again we looked a Mou side last spring. Not always an effective one, but enough that the players are completely clear on what he wants.

what van gaal wanted originally is besides the point. eventually he moved more towards what worked in the PL for united and he ended up lifting the fa cup as a direct result of that compromise.

it's also a well recognised fact that automatic positional play is not a tactical masterclass, it's basically a grid system and achieved by players buying into it enough to allow it to seap into their souls by constant repetition.

ultimately whatever system you employ it's the players on the pitch that have to adapt to the movement of the game they're in in order to exploit their own training and the opposition's weaknesses.

for me the tactical web mourinho spun on chelsea was a thing of real beauty and the way the players dominated that match, and cut the eventual champions apart repeatedly, barely giving them a sniff at the other end, made it a tactical masterclass.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

We ended up playing pragmatically given the huge number of games, the increasing injuries and the narrowing odds of actually getting into the top 4. At least half the season, if not more, wasn't like that though - it was decent exciting risk taking stuff (united like) in which our forwards, being too reliant on one in particular, fluffed their lines.

this is obviously true. whatever differs from it, to the extent of the difference, is pure bitterness.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

We ended up playing pragmatically given the huge number of games, the increasing injuries and the narrowing odds of actually getting into the top 4. At least half the season, if not more, wasn't like that though - it was decent exciting risk taking stuff (united like) in which our forwards, being too reliant on one in particular, fluffed their lines.

I think we'll be much improved this time round - certainly when viewed against the last 3 months of last season. If we're not, we should start to call it out.

Let's not forget though - last season was our best, and most successful, since Fergie left. If anything mou has bought more time than either of the last 2 managers.

We played pragmatically because Mourinho is a pragmatist. It still surprises me that anyone would have expected anything different. The quality of the football deteriorated from December anyway. Unfortunately getting this aspect right is long overdue. Personally, I haven't seen united as an attractive footballing side for a good seven or eight years now tbh.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

what van gaal wanted originally is besides the point. eventually he moved more towards what worked in the PL for united and he ended up lifting the fa cup as a direct result of that compromise.

it's also a well recognised fact that automatic positional play is not a tactical masterclass, it's basically a grid system and achieved by players buying into it enough to allow it to seap into their souls by constant repetition.

ultimately whatever system you employ it's the players on the pitch that have to adapt to the movement of the game they're in in order to exploit their own training and the opposition's weaknesses.

for me the tactical web mourinho spun on chelsea was a thing of real beauty and the way the players dominated that match, and cut the eventual champions apart repeatedly, barely giving them a sniff at the other end, made it a tactical masterclass.



this is obviously true. whatever differs from it, to the extent of the difference, is pure bitterness.

As I say, we disagree. Mourinho is one of the few top level managers who will play that way at home with a top side, and no doubt at times it can work like a dream, as it did against Chelsea. Can't say I'd ever think of it as a thing of beauty, though.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

As I say, we disagree. Mourinho is one of the few top level managers who will play that way at home with a top side, and no doubt at times it can work like a dream, as it did against Chelsea. Can't say I'd ever think of it as a thing of beauty, though.

ferguson regularly used to change the way he played at home for specific opposition - liverpool in the mid 90s being a prime example. i take it you enjoyed the 94 team though, right?

if you were at the chelsea home game last season you would have been thrilled. or would you have preferred the city opener in their 2-1 win at old trafford where the full-back booted it up the pitch, the centre forward flicked it on and de bruyne went through and scored?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

ferguson regularly used to change the way he played at home for specific opposition - liverpool in the mid 90s being a prime example. i take it you enjoyed the 94 team though, right?

if you were at the chelsea home game last season you would have been thrilled. or would you have preferred the city opener in their 2-1 win at old trafford where the full-back booted it up the pitch, the centre forward flicked it on and de bruyne went through and scored?

Don't see Fergie's pragmatism as being the same as Mou's tbh. And certainly not as common.

But as I say, we disagree on this issue stylistically. The Chelsea win, like the Ajax win, was highly convincing in the sense that everything went exactly as planned. It was domination of the tactics in that sense. Beautiful it ain't though, not for me anyway.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Don't see Fergie's pragmatism as being the same as Mou's tbh. And certainly not as common.

But as I say, we disagree on this issue stylistically. The Chelsea win, like the Ajax win, was highly convincing in the sense that everything went exactly as planned. It was domination of the tactics in that sense. Beautiful it ain't though, not for me anyway.

it was every bit as stylish (mata's acrobatics aside) as the win at anfield under van gaal and could easily have been even more convincing than it was on the scoreline.

the difference was that whereas van gaal's team got pushed back and largely dominated in the last half hour by 10 men who also pulled one back, mourinho's side was better equipped to control the game even against a top of the table champions-elect XI and were untroubled.

incidentally, for me deliberate and constant circulation of the football from side to side and back into your own half again is about as pragmatic as football gets.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

it was every bit as stylish (mata's acrobatics aside) as the win at anfield under van gaal and could easily have been even more convincing than it was on the scoreline.

the difference was that whereas van gaal's team got pushed back and largely dominated in the last half hour by 10 men who also pulled one back, mourinho's side was better equipped to control the game even against a top of the table champions-elect XI and were untroubled.

incidentally, for me deliberate and constant circulation of the football from side to side and back into your own half again is about as pragmatic as football gets.

Think you're still a bit obsessed with the Big Man tbh.

Heading for his medical in LA. 30m for a back up