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Unread 27-12-2015, 12:55 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
Up to the injury problems and the squad's downing of tools upon going out of Europe, he had us a few points off the top of the league. He was doing exactly what you said whilst overseeing a huge transition in players and play style.

Taking a shambolic squad that finished seventh to being competitive inside 18 months clearly isn't enough. It has to be done whilst playing exciting football and keeping giggs and his mates happy.
He was doing some of it, yes, but it's been unravelling since then. The injuries haven't helped, but injuries are never an excuse. They don't excuse the way we're playing now.

It's all well and good pointing out where we were a few weeks ago, but football is cruel and changes quickly. And our change has been quite alarming. It's not just the results, it's the manner of them and how costly they jabr been. We look done under this manager. For various reasons.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 12:55 AM
no fun
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky***
You see, that's where we're £#%&!ing up. There isn't and never will be another Ferguson. I don't speak in terms of sheer number of trophies and years served, I speak in terms of one man completely and utterly dominating the football club from within for a decade. That era is gone. The most successful club in the world over the last 10 years, Barcelona - have had 5 managers in that time.

We need to stop this silly notion that we're going to bring someone in who is going to manage for 10-15 years, rule over everyone within the club and instantly command respect from a dressing room full of millionaires and players on 200k a week. it's an anomaly in modern football terms.

The longer we pretend that the only thing every single manager needs to 'do a fergie' is for Utd to allow them years and years and years to eventually get it right, the quicker we're going to turn into Liverpool. A gibbering neurotic, needy mess of a club who have been searching for a Shankly in every manager for the last 30 years.

Very good post, it's about time he moved up north
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 12:57 AM
MJ Ramone
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Redface
I think Van Gaal was a better choice 'on paper', it just hasn't worked. But yes, it should have been José from the start. We should have been ruthless and looked to remain as successful as we could while figuring out where we want to go.
absolutely.
It's almost like we were too self aware to say, £#%&! it, we're the biggest Club in world football. There's no way we're relinquishing that position. We want the best manager available.

We're so used to being called glory hunters etc.. that maybe we all secretly fancied a few years of paying our dues, but it was a catastrophic mistake by the Club.

We went from being feared & arrogant £#%&!ers to a laughing stock almost overnight.
Moyes talking about "getting used" to losing games & aspiring to be like City - when we were reigning Champions
We've never recovered.

Van Gaal would have my full support if he didn't pick Fellaini every @#%&!ing week.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 12:59 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky***
Can people please stop arguing about "being entertained" because quite frankly I don't buy any of this "i don't care about winning as long as we're entertaining" balls because it's all hot air designed to win arguments on the internet. It's all hot air and posturing to make people feel like they're a superior supporter to everyone else. Nobody buys it. It's all bullshit.

It's absolute codswallop. I remember people laughing their balls off at Newcastle losing games 3-2 and 4-3 back in 1996 whilst we ruthlessly 1-0'd our way to the title every week. I don't remember anyone saying "i'd give this league and cup double back if we could have a team half as entertaining as Newcastle".

There is a balance between playing nice, entertaining football when the opportunity presents itself but always with the ultimate objective of winning. The fact is this United team don't do either very regularly. Currently they've scored less goals than Watford, Crystal Palace, West Ham and Bournemouth. Such is the paucity of scoring any £#%&!ing goals that people have convinced themselves that crashing out of europe to a team like Wolfsburg but managing to score 2 goals is some sort of moral victory.
I think it's more about being entertaining overall. The 1-0 wins are the stuff of titles, but the core of those sides and most United sides was that they were entertaining.

That slowed in Fergie's later years and we became very pragmatic and functionally effective.

I do agree that people are full of shit when it comes to "I'd rather lose playing well that win playing dull"

No you wouldn't. If you did, you'd have enjoyed the Wolfsburg game. Very attacking, very entertaining game.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 12:59 AM
lztom
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Redface
Losing Gill at the same time £#%&!ed us too.
He knew what was coming, I.e. the years of Glazer underinvestment coming home to roost, and quit whilst the going was good.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:02 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lztom
He knew what was coming, I.e. the years of Glazer underinvestment coming home to roost, and quit whilst the going was good.
Good on him. Smart fella. Wish we still had that. .

That's the sympathy I've always had for Moyes: he had Woodward in his first summer and he totally £#%&!ed him. Awful summer with all the Fabregas, thiago shit. He needed someone experienced like Gill onside.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:06 AM
MJ Ramone
 
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Redface
I think it's more about being entertaining overall. The 1-0 wins are the stuff of titles, but the core of those sides and most United sides was that they were entertaining.
absolutely this.

I don't demand a 4-2 every week (you can't beat a tight 0-1 in a Title campaign, late April nerve shredder) but we don't look like scoring at all in any game, never mind actually rattling 3 or 4 in & entertaining in the process.

If Van Gaal stays I just don't see any signs of this changing.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:09 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky***
Well Moyes was right about one thing, eventually you do get used to losing. I sat there and watched the match this afternoon in a complete emotional void. Totally unsurprised at the latest cluster£#%&! unfolding before me. I was way past angry, past sadness, past screaming at Fellaini and Jones, just sat there and absorbed it the way a hen pecked, mentally broken husband just lets his wife's latest nagging session wash over him, slowly eroding his soul.
Same.

Hoped we would react to the week, but expected an insipid defeat and we got it. A disapproving, barely-visible shake of the head at the first goal was about as emotive as I got. Spent most of the second half posting on here.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:21 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Ramone
oh christ yeah that's true.
I never expect us to get back in a game these days - even with half an hour left.

It's an amazing turnaround because I used to think there was "ages left" if we were trailing in a game with the clock at 86mins or something
always fancied us to nick something.
Yep. Thought we were done as soon as that first goal went in.

It has a knock-on effect in terms of the opposition too. Teams LOVE playing us now. Look at Stoke today. £#%&!ing flew at us and knew damn well it'd work. Going for 3s and 4s when they could sense blood. Still a big enough scalp to be noteworthy, but shit enough to beat.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:27 AM
S/Side.Red
 
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I was gutted watching it tbh. Because it's not Moyes. This is us collapsing under a great coach, who at one stage promised so much. I found it tough going to watch. As mentioned, when it reached the hour my cousin and I couldn't help remembering when that seemed plenty of time. With this United we needed a goal before half time to have a vague hope of a draw.

No getting away from the fact we just don't have goalscorers anymore. United had scored 6 goals in 12 games before cantona arrived in '93 with us halfway down the table and won us the title. From that momen Fergie adopted the principle that he could never have too many goalscorers.

We rely on a 19/20 year old French kid who most hadn't heard of four months ago
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:30 AM
20 times
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
Up to the injury problems and the squad's downing of tools upon going out of Europe, he had us a few points off the top of the league. So, he was doing exactly what you said whilst overseeing a huge transition in players and play style.

Taking a shambolic squad that finished seventh to being competitive inside 18 months clearly isn't enough. It has to be done whilst playing exciting football and keeping giggs and his mates happy.
Competitive?

What exactly have we competed for in the last 18 months?
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 01:50 AM
bobcraven
 
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Best coiffered midfielder
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 03:24 AM
Stickman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
Up to the injury problems and the squad's downing of tools upon going out of Europe, he had us a few points off the top of the league. So, he was doing exactly what you said whilst overseeing a huge transition in players and play style.

Taking a shambolic squad that finished seventh to being competitive inside 18 months clearly isn't enough. It has to be done whilst playing exciting football and keeping giggs and his mates happy.
Being top after ten games when everybody is falling over each other is misleading. Look where we are after 20. It's a marathon not a sprint.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 04:39 AM
Nicebutdim
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
It's always been an anomaly.

Teams like Madrid and barcalona can replace managers and maintain success because the manager is effectively just the first team coach. United's manager manages everything, and each managerial change usually also brings wholesale changes in staff throughout the club along with a change in strategy and youth systems and such. First team manager should really be separated from the management of the rest of the club. That's where stability comes from.
Our success has always been tied to the manager. Thats why I cried when Fergie left because he took everything he made with him and I knew we had some very tough times ahead. We may be a big club but we are not close to being the best structured and run. Quite frankly I expect us to be a shambles until we find the next great manager who will control things top to bottom and will give us as many years as he has to do it, unlike a LVG or Pep.

Klopp may have been the guy but such is life.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 09:58 AM
Billy Redface
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicebutdim
Our success has always been tied to the manager. Thats why I cried when Fergie left because he took everything he made with him and I knew we had some very tough times ahead. We may be a big club but we are not close to being the best structured and run. Quite frankly I expect us to be a shambles until we find the next great manager who will control things top to bottom and will give us as many years as he has to do it, unlike a LVG or Pep.

Klopp may have been the guy but such is life.
One the contrary, we'd be daft to think there's any one person who can control from top to bottom. Fergie commanded respect throughout, but he admitted by the end that he actually did very little in terms of day to day running. He was delegating training to phelan etc

We're a huge animal. It's not a popular dynamic in this country, but we'd be better off with a director of football or something. Woodward is a dolt and you've got sentimental former players in their 70s who have far too much influence on how the club is run. The idea of either of those two making big decisions that determine our future terrifies me.

Meanwhile on the bench, we've got another ex-player as a number two angling for the main job while all his mates are pundits slagging us off (rightly or wrongly ). It's £#%&!ed up and the structure is a mess.

It galls me that Moyes and lvg will be getting binned while Woodward continues to underwhelm and oversee this massive £#%&! up of a transition. He needs to go to. I'd get rid of him and any new guy should bring in his own number two and staff.

But, you know, not Steve round.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 10:19 AM
signed dc
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicebutdim
Our success has always been tied to the manager. Thats why I cried when Fergie left because he took everything he made with him and I knew we had some very tough times ahead. We may be a big club but we are not close to being the best structured and run. Quite frankly I expect us to be a shambles until we find the next great manager who will control things top to bottom and will give us as many years as he has to do it, unlike a LVG or Pep.

Klopp may have been the guy but such is life.
pull yourself together Nicebutdimmers
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 10:19 AM
redhegemony
 
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One problem is you need alignment between the Director of Football, the manager/coach and the assistant manager/coach and who is in ultimate control?

I don't see how the person responsible for coaching can possibly identify new players at a major club.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 10:32 AM
jaffo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signed dc
pull yourself together Nicebutdimmers
You mean you didn't cry when Fergie retired? Call yourself a United fan?
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 10:33 AM
Red Al
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony
One problem is you need alignment between the Director of Football, the manager/coach and the assistant manager/coach and who is in ultimate control?

I don't see how the person responsible for coaching can possibly identify new players at a major club.
I think the old style authoritarian manager controlling the club top to bottom is a thing of the past with agents,sponsors,top 4 or bust etc.
With the modern day footballer a one man subcontractor and young players already driving to work in £100000+ cars before they've even proved themselves.
One of the worlds best managers has just been fired by player power and it looks like another one is to follow.
 
Unread 27-12-2015, 10:34 AM
20 times
 
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Whether it's a director of football or not, Wooders needs less involvement in football related shit. He's good at getting sponsors on board so he should stick to that.
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