Louis Van Gaal until 2017?

It was a slow decline, but a decline from a team that between 06-09 has a strong argument to be seen as our best side ever. It was a level that the club has been at for probably no more than 5-7 years ever.

It was inevitable that we would drop from that peak. The transfer dealing during that post period also need to be looked at with the understanding that it was a different financial challenge, this is before the debt was restructured, the opportunity to spend £50 million+ was not there. £350 million available to spend on incoming players in the 3 years since Fergie retired, it has been used very poorly, a wonderful opportunity to revitalize and reinforce the squad wasted.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

It was a slow decline, but a decline from a team that between 06-09 has a strong argument to be seen as our best side ever. It was a level that the club has been at for probably no more than 5-7 years ever.

It was inevitable that we would drop from that peak. The transfer dealing during that post period also need to be looked at with the understanding that it was a different financial challenge, this is before the debt was restructured, the opportunity to spend £50 million+ was not there. £350 million available to spend on incoming players in the 3 years since Fergie retired, it has been used very poorly, a wonderful opportunity to revitalize and reinforce the squad wasted.

this makes it a natural cycle, not a slow decline imv. between 06 and 13 that side won 5 out of 7 league titles. and then there was a complete change in the hierarchy, followed by another huge change a year later, this time to a completely different style of football. there are threads from the ferguson era, but this is in no way a continuation, so to portray where we are now as a natural extension of, for example, the sale of ronaldo 7 years ago makes me laugh.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

this makes it a natural cycle, not a slow decline imv. between 06 and 13 that side won 5 out of 7 league titles. and then there was a complete change in the hierarchy, followed by another huge change a year later, this time to a completely different style of football. there are threads from the ferguson era, but this is in no way a continuation, so to portray where we are now as a natural extension of, for example, the sale of ronaldo 7 years ago makes me laugh.

I think most of us underestimated the impact that the loss of Ferguson would bring. Foolish complacency to think it would be smooth, one of the reasons why a form of continuity in staff and player base is tempting.

Midfield in that period was a frustrating point, waiting for Anderson and Hargreaves to overcome their injuries set the evolution of that squad back, Fletcher collapsing to his issues at the peak of his career did not help either.

We do need to move on from using Ferguson and Moyes's decisions as an excuse for current and future managers.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

I think most of us underestimated the impact that the loss of Ferguson would bring. Foolish complacency to think it would be smooth, one of the reasons why a form of continuity in staff and player base is tempting.

Midfield in that period was a frustrating point, waiting for Anderson and Hargreaves to overcome their injuries set the evolution of that squad back, Fletcher collapsing to his issues at the peak of his career did not help either.

We do need to move on from using Ferguson and Moyes's decisions as an excuse for current and future managers.

Exactly. No martyrs, no excuses, just give the right man the backing - say a few hundred million quid & let him clear the squad etc, get to work on the training ground & see where we end up.

Oh.

Originally Posted by Baron

In more succinct terms - it's both. United have got worse (on & off the pitch) & others have got a bit better. No one is actually any good though, the league & English football at the moment is akin to the Special Olympics. We're all %@#$&!s, some are just going to get medals.

United are the most shameful of all though, decision making from Woodward down to Van Gaal has been decidedly £#%&! since the day Fergie left. I can admit Van Gaal has had it difficult, but he hasn't half exacerbated it with his own calamitous footballing decisions along the way.

Ripping it up & starting again sounds counterproductive, but he's only scheduled to stay another season - Siders say's the next man is most important for our youth... I say the important thing is dragging the standards of the entire club up & then getting a grip on the long term. Whilst we have some decent prospects, the wilderness years stare back at us if we continually miss CL football & feel like the youth set-up will save us.

Buy 3 world class, young-ish (26 & under) players & you have a squad set-up for the next few seasons. Get it going £#%&!ing quickly or we're potentially £#%&!ed into a carousel of AC Milan-esque descent into mediocrity.

I agree. But that's only the case because the squad has been so reduced in age over LvG's tenure. He inherited a squad that was going to need major surgery, either immediately or a year or two down the line. He wasted no time, and as a result we're left with a young group, with the best part of a dozen talents under the age of 22-23.

As you say, add some genuine top quality that can grow with these young players and we're getting somewhere. Though we badly need some form of consistency around the place. That's hurt us a lot since Fergie left. You can't just have a team full of players who have all joined in the last few years and expect it all to cement together nice and easily.

Not only does the next manager, for me, need to embrace the idea of a young squad with the pathway from the academy clear and trusted, ideally he'd not want to rip it apart too much in the meantime, both in terms of personnel and preparation. Quality additions are essential, but some stability wouldn't go amiss. A core idea running through the club should, again, be the ambition.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I agree. But that's only the case because the squad has been so reduced in age over LvG's tenure. He inherited a squad that was going to need major surgery, either immediately or a year or two down the line. He wasted no time, and as a result we're left with a young group, with the best part of a dozen talents under the age of 22-23.

As you say, add some genuine top quality that can grow with these young players and we're getting somewhere. Though we badly need some form of consistency around the place. That's hurt us a lot since Fergie left. You can't just have a team full of players who have all joined in the last few years and expect it all to cement together nice and easily.

Not only does the next manager, for me, need to embrace the idea of a young squad with the pathway from the academy clear and trusted, ideally he'd not want to rip it apart too much in the meantime, both in terms of personnel and preparation. Quality additions are essential, but some stability wouldn't go amiss. A core idea running through the club should, again, be the ambition.

again? how can lvg clearing out players who he didn't feel he could take with him and blooding a dozen youngsters inside 2 seasons not be recognised as a core idea?

united went for continuity to attempt to continue the natural evolution of a winning formula that had served ferguson so well. we were coming off the back of a near record-breaking title winning season but it didn't work and it took less than a season for that ship to effectively sail, as the psychology of the squad fractured. united quickly changed tack and the current process began.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i don't doubt you would.

however, in reality we were maybe as little as 2 goals short of winning the league 7 seasons on the trot right up until 2013. to suggest that winning only 5 of those 7 could possibly be defined as taking their eye off the ball is a total nonsense.

the transition post ferguson has been difficult. he would have made at least 1 major signing in 2013 so no-one really need look any further for the root cause of us dropping off the pace than the fact the club couldn't even manage that despite having a new manager that summer for the first time in a generation.

We had a long term core squad of the requisite quality to win trophies and compete at the highest level up until about 2012/13. The act of replenishing and replacing this squad has been largely poor, hence the drop off in both performance and achievement. Probably the only purchases since the pivotal act of selling Ronaldo that would come close to adding to the quality of a once dominant squad were De Gea and Van Persie; the rest were largely downgrades on our previous players. This would suggest systematic recruitment and promotion errors. Support casts don't win trophies.

Originally Posted by dunk

What happened in 2013 does not point to there being no slow decline at United from 2009 to then no matter how you paint it. It does clearly emphasise the direction of the quality in the league as a whole though, only the very next season City and a one man team in the guise of Liverpool scored 100+ goals each. If anything, it probably proves true decline of United as much as anything. A 2008 United side would probably have scored 100+ easy that season, and not found themselves having to come from behind in about half their games.

As for not acknoweldging the Transition and its effects, I've gone to great lengths to explain to many of the demanders of instant success on here that it takes a lot longer to turn round a squad over bloated with past it, not good enough, injury prone and do a job players, than 18 months. This huge transition is required in no small part due to the rank awful player procurement since the signing of Berbs in 2009. Sure, a lot of them 'did a job' but those signings are why the squad was on its last legs in '13 as the old players and leaders came to the end and the players brought in to support/replace them weren't ready or even good enough. Poor recruitment. And since then, the signings have been average as well. Which is why we are where we are.

That's not to say 2012-13 couldn't be enjoyable btw, large parts were, doesn't mean the side wasn't worse than it had been previously. Even the 11-12 side was probably better.

As was the 2009/10 one dubbed a "failure" because we missed the league by one point - we played some genuinely good stuff that campaign.

Great post, btw

Originally Posted by utd99

We had a long term core squad of the requisite quality to win trophies and compete at the highest level up until about 2012/13. The act of replenishing and replacing this squad has been largely poor, hence the drop off in both performance and achievement. Probably the only purchases since the pivotal act of selling Ronaldo that would come close to adding to the quality of a once dominant squad were De Gea and Van Persie; the rest were largely downgrades on our previous players. This would suggest systematic recruitment and promotion errors. Support casts don't win trophies.

after ronaldo left, rooney stepped up and got great support from valencia. performances in the CL v Wolfsburg and in the knock-out phase showed we were still competing well at the top level.

the next season berbatov and fletcher stepped up and drove us to the title and the CL final.

2011 summer De Gea and Jones were signed but that season fabio and rafael began to go backwards. evans and welbeck struggled with fitness, too. people still tend to ignore the fact that the start united had to that season also saw nani step up as we played some of the best football of ferguson's entire time at the club.

and in season 4 post ronaldo we romped the league and were mugged in the CL.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

again? how can lvg clearing out players who he didn't feel he could take with him and blooding a dozen youngsters inside 2 seasons not be recognised as a core idea?

united went for continuity to attempt to continue the natural evolution of a winning formula that had served ferguson so well. we were coming off the back of a near record-breaking title winning season but it didn't work and it took less than a season for that ship to effectively sail, as the psychology of the squad fractured. united quickly changed tack and the current process began.

It is, but the idea has to run through the club and not leave with LvG. Obviously fans have reached a stage of arrogance that LvG and Ferguson are dismissed as not knowing what's best for the club, but you'd like to think people who hired and worked alongside Van Gaal would be committed to a similar vision.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

It is, but the idea has to run through the club and not leave with LvG. Obviously fans have reached a stage of arrogance that LvG and Ferguson are dismissed as not knowing what's best for the club, but you'd like to think people who hired and worked alongside Van Gaal would be committed to a similar vision.

precisely.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

after ronaldo left, rooney stepped up and got great support from valencia. performances in the CL v Wolfsburg and in the knock-out phase showed we were still competing well at the top level.

the next season berbatov and fletcher stepped up and drove us to the title and the CL final.

2011 summer De Gea and Jones were signed but that season fabio and rafael began to go backwards. evans and welbeck struggled with fitness, too. people still tend to ignore the fact that the start united had to that season also saw nani step up as we played some of the best football of ferguson's entire time at the club.

and in season 4 post ronaldo we romped the league and were mugged in the CL.

And in all of the time scale you cited, those veteran players -the core- that I mentioned were still at the club. Only when the core was gone, and the next generation were fully exposed, did it become clear how misguided our purchases had been.

In short, we leaned on players like Vidic, Rio, Evra, Scholes, Giggs etc - veteran champions- longer than we should have had to, and didn't replace them properly. In a way we are still doing it with the likes of Rooney and Carrick. That group were good enough; the following group, who mostly functioned as their support cast and are now, or were, the main men simply aren't.

It's too one dimensional to make the assumption that because players like Valencia won trophies as part of that group that they are, by definition, good enough.

Originally Posted by utd99

And in all of the time scale you cited, those veteran players -the core- that I mentioned were still at the club. Only when the core was gone, and the next generation were fully exposed, did it become clear how misguided our purchases had been.

In short, we leaned on players like Vidic, Rio, Evra, Scholes, Giggs etc - veteran champions- longer than we should have had to, and didn't replace them properly. In a way we are still doing it with the likes of Rooney and Carrick. That group were good enough; the following group, who mostly functioned as their support cast and are now, or were, the main men simply aren't.

It's too one dimensional to make the assumption that because players like Valencia won trophies as part of that group that they are, by definition, good enough.

In our last title winning season. Scholes started 8 league games(and barely featured in the second half of the season), Giggs 12, Vidic 18, Rio 26 and Evra 34. The first 2 were down to cameos and starts against the weaker sides at home, Vidic was carefully managed but it was still apparent that he was struggling to get to the level of the previous season, pre injury. Rio and Evra made more substantial contributions but It was in general a squad effort with a lot of the players who have been derided since being important factors.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

In our last title winning season. Scholes started 8 league games(and barely featured in the second half of the season), Giggs 12, Vidic 18, Rio 26 and Evra 34. The first 2 were down to cameos and starts against the weaker sides at home, Vidic was carefully managed but it was still apparent that he was struggling to get to the level of the previous season, pre injury. Rio and Evra made more substantial contributions but It was in general a squad effort with a lot of the players who have been derided since being important factors.

But they were part of the set up and had tremendous influence still. For example, what would that group have made of Depay's efforts had they been sharing a field with him? Would he have gotten away with that effort with Ferdinand or Evra in the changing room?

The two biggest influences that season were Van Persie and Ferguson. Of course the squad plays a huge role, and having those perrenial champions as part of it, even though they were coming to the end, was vital if for nothing other than esprit de corps. The question being discussed here however is what's left of that, and are they good enough to reach the same heights? The answer I think is clearly not.

Originally Posted by utd99

But they were part of the set up and had tremendous influence still. For example, what would that group have made of Depay's efforts had they been sharing a field with him? Would he have gotten away with that effort with Ferdinand or Evra in the changing room?

The two biggest influences that season were Van Persie and Ferguson. Of course the squad plays a huge role, and having those perrenial champions as part of it, even though they were coming to the end, was vital if for nothing other than esprit de corps. The question being discussed here however is what's left of that, and are they good enough to reach the same heights? The answer I think is clearly not.

What is left now is not capable, what was left when LVG assumed control is more debatable. That squad needed pruning, but he decided that a £#%&! off chainsaw was the tool of excision rather than a scalpel.

I think we really can't just blame LvG for the thin and unbalanced squad we were left with - its surely obvious he wanted a few more players in, and sooner?

Originally Posted by Tiberian

What is left now is not capable, what was left when LVG assumed control is more debatable. That squad needed pruning, but he decided that a £#%&! off chainsaw was the tool of excision rather than a scalpel.

Maybe history will show that a purge was beneficial. Might not be over yet.

Originally Posted by utd99

And in all of the time scale you cited, those veteran players -the core- that I mentioned were still at the club. Only when the core was gone, and the next generation were fully exposed, did it become clear how misguided our purchases had been.

In short, we leaned on players like Vidic, Rio, Evra, Scholes, Giggs etc - veteran champions- longer than we should have had to, and didn't replace them properly. In a way we are still doing it with the likes of Rooney and Carrick. That group were good enough; the following group, who mostly functioned as their support cast and are now, or were, the main men simply aren't.

It's too one dimensional to make the assumption that because players like Valencia won trophies as part of that group that they are, by definition, good enough.

giggs was still one of the best players in the PL even at age 39. why would anyone not have wanted him to still be involved in the 1st team

scholes came back for half a season and was outstanding, so again, why would anyone see that as the wrong call

as far as the veteran defenders go, ferguson had been nurturing and entire new back 4 made up from the twins as full-backs, jones the top young english prospect and evans the classy composed hansen type. he had smalling as a reserve, and he had a few lads coming through. only time would tell whether they could step up but the signs had been good enough to give them that chance.

the summer of 2013 should have seen a rugged vidic type brought in, some cover at left back (a possibly RB as well), and then over the next two seasons the veterans would have been phased out in a near seamless transition. this would have allowed the new manager time to see which of evans, jones and smalling he fancied and bring in someone else if he thought it was needed. in other words the evolution of the squad would have continued.

what actually happened is that woodward completely £#%&!ed up the transfer window and no defenders were brought in. then the manager was sacked and the next one came in with a completely different style of football. hence 2013 is a clear line in the sand. which is why 2013 and not what came after is the measure of the squad ferguson finished with.


incidentally, here's a decent commentary on the current state of play in the PL. united's situation should be judged in the context of the wider picture as i said yesterday, and this piece from today highlights why:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35918431