Hillsborough

Well the Taylor report, various inquires and coroners reports including today's criminal procedures say otherwise...

it was ANY other club in the world you wouldn't even raise it...

Originally Posted by no fun

No pal

Perfectly aware that the cops lied, the press lied, and the thatcher govt made sure a lot of the truth remained buried .....

But....

I cannot get my head round the idea that the fans were perfectly behaved gentlemen. We've all been away with united, and let's face it there's a right load of pissed up loons in attendance ...and they were no different. I was at hillsborough in 76 and 77, on leppings lane, and it was scary.....caused by fans pushing from the back. Ok the games should have been policed better, the stadium was not fit for purpose, etc etc, but the behaviour of the fans was a contributory factor. And in the absence of just one £#%&!ing scouser admitting that, they can £#%&! off

Absolutely correct. If the scousers were perfectly behaved that day and didn't contribute in any way it would have been the one and only time; ever. I don't buy it. People should be held to account for the reckless decisions they made and anyone involved in a cover up should go to prison, but this whole issue has morphed over the years into an absolute whitewash of how the Liverpool fans conducted themselves back then. We know; those of us who went to games with them in the 80's £#%&!ing know. This doesn't have to be absolute one side or the other because the truth almost certainly isn't.

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Well the Taylor report, various inquires and coroners reports including today's criminal procedures say otherwise...

it was ANY other club in the world you wouldn't even raise it...

We've been here before and his argument appears to be that the scousers deserved it because they deliberately put the turnstiles under pressure.

And that only if the scousers admitted that they miss behaved outside the ground then he'd see it in his heart to accept they've been £#%&!ed over albeit it's still all their fault.

Its like the police stopping a 11 year old kid from nicking a mars bar from a newsagent by shooting him to death via a swat team on the pavement outside. Ahh yes but that kids family have never admitted he was nicking a chocolate bar have they eh? £#%&!ing scousers.

Why he continually tries to break it down into this simplistic cause and effect argument whilst ignoring the fact that the police's role was to manage the crowd and out of all the measures available to them they chose one that was so insane that it beggars belief/was grossly negligent is anyone's guess.

Fortunately history and the world has more sense.

Woah

I had no idea Keith hated nofun so much.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

We've been here before and his argument appears to be that the scousers deserved it because they deliberately put the turnstiles under pressure.

And that only if the scousers admitted that they miss behaved outside the ground then he'd see it in his heart to accept they've been £#%&!ed over albeit it's still all their fault.

Its like the police stopping a 11 year old kid from nicking a mars bar from a newsagent by shooting him to death via a swat team on the pavement outside. Ahh yes but that kids family have never admitted he was nicking a chocolate bar have they eh? £#%&!ing scousers.

Why he continually tries to break it down into this simplistic cause and effect argument whilst ignoring the fact that the police's role was to manage the crowd and out of all the measures available to them they chose one that was so insane that it beggars belief/was grossly negligent is anyone's guess.

Fortunately history and the world has more sense.

Correct

I've seen Utd fans cause a massive crush at a turnstyle in order to jib into almost every euro away I've been on , so don't start slagging the bin dippers over this .

Ridiculous position .

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

Correct

I've seen Utd fans cause a massive crush at a turnstyle in order to jib into almost every euro away I've been on , so don't start slagging the bin dippers over this .

Ridiculous position .

This is also correct. It would be totally dishonest to suggest that we couldn't have also caused a tragedy like this with the way our lot conducted themselves in the 80's, and that all that separates us from the Liverpool fans is pure luck. However if it had been us, do you think we would have been able to absolve ourselves of every shred of responsibility for it?

Originally Posted by utd99

This is also correct. It would be totally dishonest to suggest that we couldn't have also caused a tragedy like this with the way our lot conducted themselves in the 80's, and that all that separates us from the Liverpool fans is pure luck. However if it had been us, do you think we would have been able to absolve ourselves of every shred of responsibility for it?

Right, so you agree that dukenfield was grossly negligent, that the disaster could have been routinely avoided, that the institutional cover up was unfortunate to say the least and that it was just a real shame that it took nearly 30 years to uncover the truth but if a few scousers would have only admitted that they had tried to jib in then you wouldn't be so critical?

Right you are pal - people might accuse united fans of taking a disproportionate position but not me.

Originally Posted by irk

Woah

I had no idea Keith hated nofun so much.

He's made No Fun look like a right @#%&!, nqat

Originally Posted by utd99

This is also correct. It would be totally dishonest to suggest that we couldn't have also caused a tragedy like this with the way our lot conducted themselves in the 80's, and that all that separates us from the Liverpool fans is pure luck. However if it had been us, do you think we would have been able to absolve ourselves of every shred of responsibility for it?

I think it would've taken us 27 years to do it, like it did them and fair £#%&!s to 'em.

They've been absolved of blame by every reasonable measure and some of the attitudes to this by United fans are an embarrassment to the club in all honesty.

Originally Posted by utd99

This is also correct. It would be totally dishonest to suggest that we couldn't have also caused a tragedy like this with the way our lot conducted themselves in the 80's, and that all that separates us from the Liverpool fans is pure luck. However if it had been us, do you think we would have been able to absolve ourselves of every shred of responsibility for it?

Yeah we'd all be running out in the following weeks of a tragedy

"I hold my hands up to
Pushing at numerous euro aways, jibbbing loads of grounds in the uk and generally acting a @#%&!..."

What's your time frame on @#%&! admittance.....

Because I've been a @#%&! at most games I visit..its football...

Do you need people charged for subletting before the Grenfell money is paid or a corporation are charged ?

Burn in your flats lads, get utterly crushed at the football

But hold your hands up...

Embarrassing, this is how they keep us silent...

Christ it's like a £#%&!ing kindergarten here, at times. Everything totally black or white. Got to be right on a forum.

Couldn't possibly be govt, authorities, police etc all culpable AND supporters also culpable. I've never been to a big match in that era, when there was no misbehaving from fans, least of all them. Anyone not accepting both angles is deliberately doing so for their own agenda.

Originally Posted by Lok

Never knew that. Cheers.

Tony Bland, was a landmark "death with dignity" case after the courts permitted his life support to be switched off.

people still pretending the verdict exonerates liverpool's entire support that day

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

We've been here before and his argument appears to be that the scousers deserved it because they deliberately put the turnstiles under pressure.

And that only if the scousers admitted that they miss behaved outside the ground then he'd see it in his heart to accept they've been £#%&!ed over albeit it's still all their fault.

Its like the police stopping a 11 year old kid from nicking a mars bar from a newsagent by shooting him to death via a swat team on the pavement outside. Ahh yes but that kids family have never admitted he was nicking a chocolate bar have they eh? £#%&!ing scousers.

Why he continually tries to break it down into this simplistic cause and effect argument whilst ignoring the fact that the police's role was to manage the crowd and out of all the measures available to them they chose one that was so insane that it beggars belief/was grossly negligent is anyone's guekss.

Fortunately history and the world has more sense.

I have never said the scousers deserved it....that's just plain wrong

I have never said the police were blameless

What I have consistently said, and I stand by this, is that the Liverpool supporters, as with most sets of fans then and to a lesser extent now, did not behave in an orderly manner, and I have never heard one of them suggest otherwise.

And therefore, imho, the truth is not quite "the truth"....if it was spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle et al I would have the same view, I have probably been to at least a dozen fa cup semi finals and on every occasion, including 3 against Liverpool, both sets of fans were lively to say the least

Originally Posted by no fun

I have never said the scousers deserved it....that's just plain wrong

I have never said the police were blameless

What I have consistently said, and I stand by this, is that the Liverpool supporters, as with most sets of fans then and to a lesser extent now, did not behave in an orderly manner, and I have never heard one of them suggest otherwise.

And therefore, imho, the truth is not quite "the truth"....if it was spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle et al I would have the same view, I have probably been to at least a dozen fa cup semi finals and on every occasion, including 3 against Liverpool, both sets of fans were lively to say the least

the rationale in play here is that crowds can be as lively as you want, but that's all irrelevant because someone opened a gate instead of letting them start to die outside it, and some stupid @#%&! forgot to block the tunnel off.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

the rationale in play here is that crowds can be as lively as you want, but that's all irrelevant because someone opened a gate instead of letting them start to die outside it, and some stupid c*** forgot to block the tunnel off.

Yeah that's it

It's about the police response to a situation and whether their response is appropriate or grossly negligent. The world and his dog have found the police to be negligent in this case, that the fans behaviour was manageable and shouldnt have led to some balloon making such a catastrophic decision to open some exit gates.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Yeah that's it

It's about the police response to a situation and whether their response is appropriate or grossly negligent. The world and his dog have found the police to be negligent in this case, that the fans behaviour was manageable and shouldnt have led to some balloon making such a catastrophic decision to open some exit gates.

It's just generally not worth it mate....

Drunken scousers were the issue...

30 years later folk still repeat it verbatim..."if only one person would stand up and"



Odd

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Yeah that's it

It's about the police response to a situation and whether their response is appropriate or grossly negligent. The world and his dog have found the police to be negligent in this case, that the fans behaviour was manageable and shouldnt have led to some balloon making such a catastrophic decision to open some exit gates.

pure revisionism.

of course fans behaviour is manageable. should we blame the police for every other time they didn't manage it without it going pear-shaped? no. no-one died so we can still admit the fans were acting like hooligans. not those at hillsborough though, they were different. although if we're honest we all know that they were at least as bad as any other support in the country. which is part of why they could only be trusted with one £#%&!ing turnstile in the 1st place.

I don't see why any "pushing" is relevant to the dibble getting charged for negligence.

Negligence is negligence if they didn't do their jobs properly.

"Orrr eh, la, the police should have done more to make sure we behaved ourselves"