*Official* Sunderland v United Match Thread - Teams and Value

Originally Posted by red in cumbria

Unfortunately, that "not many" includes one rather important one, it seems

Yep,fergie for all his strengths does have his blind spots, like Wenger with goalkeepers.

Originally Posted by redmike

Further evidence yesterday that playing two strikers away doesn't work especially because our midfield is not strong enough anymore to control games away from old trafford, i'd back utd to beat anybody at home, but away from our patch i can see a lot more teams taking points off us, and that's where the league will be won, on the road, chelsea won't have much trouble dispatching most teams on their travels with the likes of essien, mikel protecting their back four while lampard and malouda can chip in with key goals, when their strikers are misfiring.

For most of the game, we had 1 up front. Unless I was watching another game.

Macheda dropped to left so Anderson could go inside to cover a midfield that was being overrun again away from home. Owen up front by himself in that formation is never likely to work. Never retained the ball up front meaning that the midfield was constantly stretched.

It had to be Berbatov and one of the 2, maybe he was fatigued after Valencia but I can not see how Fergie expected the starting pair to work.

Macheda could do with a start at home to one of the lesser sides when Utd have a lot of the ball, every league start has been away from home and he has struggled to get to the pace of the game, wanting to long on the ball or sloppy with his touch.

Owen will never be popular but if he is getting service and he can do what he is good at then he is a useful player to have around, asking him to chase long balls and contest 50/50's in the air is a waste of time for everyone.

Hernandez struggled at Fulham and has been a little lightweight at times, may be the better option to hold him back until games have opened up at this point, a lot of very promising signs from him though.

Hopefully these 2 weeks will give Utd a chance to sort out the midfield, get Anderson and Carrick back to somewhere near full fitness. Some may not like to hear it but Utd can not afford Scholes in these type of away games any more, not against an energetic and aggressive midfield. This is exacerbated by Fletcher already looking shattered.

Originally Posted by Coracao

For most of the game, we had 1 up front. Unless I was watching another game.

or none, given that it was owen.

i can't for the life of me understand the sense in putting owen on his own up front and macheda more or less on the left wing. bizarre selection.


on the midfield, the argument was whether the players mentioned this summer (ozil or silva for example) were players we needed. nobody questioned that they are good players, some queried whether they would actually be interested in coming here or would be addressing the issues we need in the squad. i didn't think wide players were what we needed, certainly not as a priority, and i don't think that they would have improved us particularly yesterday, or against everton or fulham for that matter. a quality central midfielder would have - like banega, for example

Originally Posted by Coracao

For most of the game, we had 1 up front. Unless I was watching another game.

I meant two strikers not the formation.
Better off playing an extra midfielder rather than ask a striker to operate in a role that he is not used to playing.
at least there you have a better chance of retaining possession of the ball.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

Macheda dropped to left so Anderson could go inside to cover a midfield that was being overrun again away from home. Owen up front by himself in that formation is never likely to work. Never retained the ball up front meaning that the midfield was constantly stretched.

It had to be Berbatov and one of the 2, maybe he was fatigued after Valencia but I can not see how Fergie expected the starting pair to work.

Macheda could do with a start at home to one of the lesser sides when Utd have a lot of the ball, every league start has been away from home and he has struggled to get to the pace of the game, wanting to long on the ball or sloppy with his touch.

Owen will never be popular but if he is getting service and he can do what he is good at then he is a useful player to have around, asking him to chase long balls and contest 50/50's in the air is a waste of time for everyone.

Hernandez struggled at Fulham and has been a little lightweight at times, may be the better option to hold him back until games have opened up at this point, a lot of very promising signs from him though.

Hopefully these 2 weeks will give Utd a chance to sort out the midfield, get Anderson and Carrick back to somewhere near full fitness. Some may not like to hear it but Utd can not afford Scholes in these type of away games any more, not against an energetic and aggressive midfield. This is exacerbated by Fletcher already looking shattered.

I was actually thinking that before regarding Macheda. It is strange that most of his games come away from home. You'd think Fergie would be more likely to start him at home...

Borsuk, i think it is pretty evident we need a wide player at the minute. The 1 injury to Valencia has pretty much £#%&!ed us in terms of options. Even if Giggs was fit, he'd struggle to play the number of games we'd need out of him over the course of this season. Obertan looks absolutely nowhere near ready for first team football from what i've seen, and I haven't got a clue about Bebe.

I dread to think what will happen if Nani picks up an injury.

We need a winger as well as a central midfielder.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

When throb's having a pop at someone for bringing stats to the party you know the atmosphere is getting a bit fraught!

It was an awful display today. The sooner Rooney's back the better.
...let's just hope Newcastle can spring a surprise tomorrow...& that Arsenal can take a share of the points at Stamford Bridge

9 out of 10 of your attempts to comprehend irony (or anything else really) fail

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

You stop Scholesy & you stop our creativity.

Vidic played well, but Rio is the absolute dogs %@#$&!s. He's the best centre half in the world. We REALLY need him to stay fit now ....get Carrick back playing well & get Wazza back playing & we might still be able to give Chelsea a run for their money.

Scholes is not the major creative force in the side, so your point doesn't make any sense. Scholes' main strengths are his passing, obviously, and his spacial awareness - his ability to see where everyone is moving on the field

The sooner Rooney is right in the head and back on blob in his football the better, you're right. Completely pointless playing him while he can barely trap a bag of cement though, of course.

As for giving Chelsea a run for their money, in keeping with this thread that's just a melodrama overdrive. United have #@&%!ed up the end of two aways that they were winning until injury time, and in the other two they've picked up two hard earned draws. People citing that as evidence of fundamental weaknesses in the make up and quality of the squad, particularly in the midfield positions, are overestimating the value of their perception.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

People citing that as evidence of fundamental weaknesses...are overestimating the value of their perception.

Throb, in all four of our away league games the opposition have surged through our "midfield" as if it didn't exist. Some of us think that, just possibly, that is a sign that things could do with strengthening there. Of course, as ever your mileage may vary.......

Originally Posted by red in cumbria

Throb, in all four of our away league games the opposition have surged through our "midfield" as if it didn't exist. Some of us think that, just possibly, that is a sign that things could do with strengthening there. Of course, as ever your mileage may vary.......

there are incidents and passages of play where the opposition arrive at United's back four - or five, or six - very easily. many of these are by design. United have played that way for two decades pretty much so I would've thought most people would be used to it by now.

you may argue that it seems slightly more exaggerated atm. but I've yet to read any credible explanation from the critics of the squad as to why United haven't lost a single game this season so far. imean there's the one that says we've been slightly fortunate of course. but then that one has to factor in that we've also been slightly unfortunate not to have won more as well, right?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

there are incidents and passages of play where the opposition arrive at United's back four - or five, or six - very easily. many of these are by design. United have played that way for two decades pretty much so I would've thought most people would be used to it by now.

you may argue that it seems slightly more exaggerated atm. but I've yet to read any credible explanation from the critics of the squad as to why United haven't lost a single game this season so far. imean there's the one that says we've been slightly fortunate of course. but then that one has to factor in that we've also been slightly unfortunate not to have won more as well, right?

Can't argue with any of that.
But, do you really think we're a good side at the moment?? ...Do we have a squad of players that can compete for the kind of prizes we should be competing for?
I know you like to disagree with me as a matter of course! ...but I think we're lacking serious quality, particularly in midfield - both out wide & centrally.

We can talk about players coming back from injury, but our shape & application was all over the place yesterday.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Can't argue with any of that.
But, do you really think we're a good side at the moment?? ...Do we have a squad of players that can compete for the kind of prizes we should be competing for?
I know you like to disagree with me as a matter of course! ...but I think we're lacking serious quality, particularly in midfield - both out wide & centrally.

We can talk about players coming back from injury, but our shape & application was all over the place yesterday.

honestly, yes. but we need good fortune with health and fitness that has been lacking in recent times.

it is quickly apparent that we are short in the wide areas without Valencia. however, imo this doesn't necessarily point to a glaring error in recruitment. the Ozil situation has been argued to death on here. people are talking up the dutch lad at Spurs again as well. can't say i'm overly disappointed that they don't play for us tbh

the key to all United's perceived ills will be the forward positions. will Rooney be able to even get close to what he did last season? will he be able to do it in combination with another forward? and if he can't, will Ferguson play him alone, or will he use the combination that works instead when the match clearly calls for it? yesterday he left Rooney out but still covered his arse from that potential dilemma by leaving Berbatov and Hernandez on the bench. imo that was a ridiculous decision and doesn't hold out much promise for the weeks and months ahead.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

the key to all United's perceived ills will be the forward positions. will Rooney be able to even get close to what he did last season? will he be able to do it in combination with another forward? and if he can't, will Ferguson play him alone, or will he use the combination that works instead when the match clearly calls for it? yesterday he left Rooney out but still covered his arse from that potential dilemma by leaving Berbatov and Hernandez on the bench. imo that was a ridiculous decision and doesn't hold out much promise for the weeks and months ahead.

So you're saying Fergie deliberately didn't play Berbatov & Chico together because he was scared they might click & therefore make it difficult to give Rooney a game?

Chico & Berbatov play a couple of give&goes and suddenly they're a better bet than Rooney??

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

So you're saying Fergie deliberately didn't play Berbatov & Chico together because he was scared they might click & therefore make it difficult to give Rooney a game?

Chico & Berbatov play a couple of give&goes and suddenly they're a better bet than Rooney??

I don't think that's what he's saying at all tbh.

Originally Posted by Whalefish

I don't think that's what he's saying at all tbh.

I think it is tbf.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

I think it is tbf.

If we play 4-3-3 then Rooney is the best suited to lone striker role, provided he finds anything like his best form. In a 2 in a standard front pairing Rooney has rarely gelled with any strike partner. Berbatov and Hernandez look a natural partnership based on a few cameo's.

However it is of course not as simple as that, an on form Rooney has to play every game, way too early to suggest that Hernandez should be starting in any formation ahead of Rooney, but I wonder if in certain games we might see Rooney on the left wing in a 4-4-2, at the moment it might actually be a decent option with him struggling with his touch and needing a little more space.

Ferguson sees Hernandez as his new Solskjaer and Rooney as his lone striker. i'm sure this isn't news to you.

he likes one up front and going back to the beginning of his success at United he would find occasion to push McClair back in to spring from a 5 - FAC s/f against Oldham in 90 iirc, certainly the LC s/f in 94 (when Eric was injured) for just a couple of examples. with his current forward line his only genuine option along similar lines is to use Rooney from a wider (and deeper) starting position. it has proved effective in the past, but it is not Rooney's preferred position of course...

I wasn't disagreeing with any of those points, of course it's good to have options.
My point was, do you really believe that Fergie deliberately played a weakened strikeforce yesterday just so he didn't have to deal with any future selection problems??

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

I wasn't disagreeing with any of those points, of course it's good to have options.
My point was, do you really believe that Fergie deliberately played a weakened strikeforce yesterday just so he didn't have to deal with any future selection problems??

when you actually write that down it seems fantastic

then again, it's really very difficult to fathom quite what the thinking behind leaving out Berbatov and Hernandez for Owen and Macheda could possibly have been

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

when you actually write that down it seems fantastic

then again, it's really very difficult to fathom quite what the thinking behind leaving out Berbatov and Hernandez for Owen and Macheda could possibly have been

True.
Leaving Berbatov & Evra out yesterday was absolutely mental.