Ferie Out!

Originally Posted by Spiffy

What if an expensive suit gets you past the interview for a decent job? It's completely subjective. You assume vfm = cheap. Depending what you want the item for you will have different requirements.

a very good point

however, if the job of my dreams could be mine for the cost of a sharp suit I'd hire one

theres a couple of them london fancy dan bastards who are advocating a yes vote on this thread

no £#%&!ing walkers smokey bacon crisps for them on my next visit to puff central

Originally Posted by Spiffy

Because they get things they want with money they have earned. It's their choice what they spend their money on. No one tells them what to buy. If they choose to, they can take their custom to a different shop and buy different makes and ensure that they get value for money. With tax, they charge what they want, give you shite service at a time convenient to them and they put you in prison if you don't keep giving them your money.

rubbish. the vast majority of people's buying choices are made within a world of values constructed for them through branding, fashion etc. - all entirely subjective but accepted as objective.

the example of choosing a suit to get you past an interview is simply the same dynamic in a two-person group, nothing more.

Originally Posted by borsuk

rubbish. the vast majority of people's buying choices are made within a world of values constructed for them through branding, fashion etc. - all entirely subjective but accepted as objective.

the example of choosing a suit to get you past an interview is simply the same dynamic in a two-person group, nothing more.

You still have the option of witholding payment. It's no coincidence that countries with competition had better products that were more reliable and cheaper than countries with no competition. If you're in a race, you innovate. If you know you'll always be able to sell it why bother?

I won't waste my time rambling next time then.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

You still have the option of witholding payment. It's no coincidence that countries with competition had better products that were more reliable and cheaper than countries with no competition. If you're in a race, you innovate. If you know you'll always be able to sell it why bother?

really? now to me that just sounds like standard pop-economic claptrap. where was the greatest competition in the motoring industry: the us, germany, japan or france? where are the best cars made? where is the motoring industry dying out? investment and good management, infrastructure and plus a stable business/industrial environment, including (where appropriate) state support, is at least as important.

competition works well where there is a genuinely even playing field and products compete on price and quality. branding and fashion, which are based on neither of these, are very harmful imo.

I own a car and work in the town centre but catch the tram to work.

I'm for the charge, on balance.

I understand that there are some unfortunates who will get caught out with the outer ring and have no alternative. What I can't understand is the people who currently drive into the city centre complaining.

They either pay upwards of £10 a day for parking in which case the charge is nothing in comparison or they get subsidised parking in which case I have no pity for them when I'm paying £3 a day to catch the tram.

There's no way it will get passed anyway.

Originally Posted by Zorg

I won't waste my time rambling next time then.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Sorry but I get the impression those in favour are making standard assumptions without all the facts. It's not a simple question of motorists moaning, there are other issues here.

I am fervently in favour of improving the transport network and despite having a car am no lover of driving, but the way it's being presented is a disgrace.

- It doesn't make any difference to me as I work from home now, but I didn't always and for years I have given money to Metrolink but have they ever upgraded diddly £#%&!ing squat? Nope. £3.50 for a short journey and yet we have the same shit ticket machines and scrap bits of paper laughably called 'tickets' as we had in 1992. We've had ONE line added in that time, to Eccles. The trams are so full at rush hour you have to let two go before you can get on, and roughly once a week the system fails completely. 'We are sorry to announce...'.

It's the most expensive and poorly-run tram system I have ever come across. So where's that money gone, exactly? Same place as our council tax, presumably.

- A friend of mine will be paying £40 a month for literally a five minute journey to work. She has stuff to carry for work so cannot take the bus or walk. She used to insist on walking but changed her mind as a young woman carrying a laptop through Whalley Range in the dark isn't the best thing to do. Is it fair she has to pay £40 a month? I don't think so.

- What about the areas of Manchester that have been completely ignored? Burnage, Levenshulme, Longsight, Gorton to name a few will get next to nothing from this apart from fancy bus stops. Are they supposed to vote Yes?

- They haven't confirmed that train stations will get ticket machines. I have been hassled for not buying a ticket because of this, even threatened with prosecution despite having no machines, no ticket office and no monkey on the train.

- Cycle lanes: again, I have been unable to find out exactly what these will look like, but I strongly suspect a slap of green paint with a nice picture of a bike on it. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so, but they should be more clear about it if they want me to vote Yes.

So you see, it's a lot more complicated than 'motorists moaning again'.

i agree with a lot of what you say, zorg, but that's a case for decent investment in public transport, not a case for not investing at all.

livingstone's fares fair policy was a really good idea back in the 80s, until the witch killed it off. more people using public transport = safer public transport and more awareness of and pressure for needed, as opposed to wasteful, investment.

starve the public sector of funds then say how shit it is and how much better the private sector is. not exactly a new policy.

Originally Posted by borsuk

really? now to me that just sounds like standard pop-economic claptrap. where was the greatest competition in the motoring industry: the us, germany, japan or france? where are the best cars made? where is the motoring industry dying out? investment and good management, infrastructure and plus a stable business/industrial environment, including (where appropriate) state support, is at least as important.

competition works well where there is a genuinely even playing field and products compete on price and quality. branding and fashion, which are based on neither of these, are very harmful imo.

The best cars are in Germany. The rivalry between BMW and Mercedes have meant that they have to invest in R+D to stay ahead of the game. Mercedes currently spend £1M per week in investment, significantly more than can be justified with a nationalised industry. No surprise therefore to see ABS, Airbags and pretty much every other safety device first appear on the S Class Merc. Russia had a nationalised car industry, they made Lada's and they were rightly seen as a joke. They just couldn't compete no matter how much money was pumped in.

The 2nd best cars are in Japan (in terms or reliability). The rivalry between Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Suzuki etc etc etc have meant that their cars had to constantly improve too. When Lexus was launched, they were then competing against Mercedes and so a new standard was introduced. What did Mercedes do? Improved their cars to keep their customers.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

The best cars are in Germany. The rivalry between BMW and Mercedes have meant that they have to invest in R+D to stay ahead of the game. Mercedes currently spend £1M per week in investment, significantly more than can be justified with a nationalised industry. No surprise therefore to see ABS, Airbags and pretty much every other safety device first appear on the S Class Merc. Russia had a nationalised car industry, they made Lada's and they were rightly seen as a joke. They just couldn't compete no matter how much money was pumped in.

The 2nd best cars are in Japan (in terms or reliability). The rivalry between Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Suzuki etc etc etc have meant that their cars had to constantly improve too. When Lexus was launched, they were then competing against Mercedes and so a new standard was introduced. What did Mercedes do? Improved their cars to keep their customers.

i'm not sure what you're arguing here. i haven't argued the case for nationalisation or centralisation - quite the opposite, in fact. nevertheless, all of these successful car companies have benefitted from very clear and overt industrial policies in their countries, including preferential taxation, preferred status for national contracts, cheap credits and protectionism. of course competition is important - but it is managed and regulated competition on the basis of quality and price which works. and part of that competition is appropriate allocation of costs, including externalised costs such as pollution - which is why nuclear power, for example, is not viable (it only provides value when the costs of cleaning up (or burying the waste) is socialised).

Originally Posted by borsuk

i agree with a lot of what you say, zorg, but that's a case for decent investment in public transport, not a case for not investing at all.

Well, that's the problem. We should not be voting Yes or No to investing in public transport at all, we should be voting yes or no to having a congestion charge. But they have forced it into 'vote Yes or the transport system gets it'. I am angry at the way it's been presented to us, it's a sort of blackmail.

I dearly want the investment and would love Manchester to have a decent transport network, but I want to know what has happened to all the money we've spent in the past and why that can't be used to upgrade the system.

And what about the dearth of information and the areas that are getting nothing in return?

It's simplistic and wrong to assume that people are only complaining because they are lazy, evil polluters. I mean, what a childish way of looking at it. If I were to be paying £40 a month with next to no benefit, after years of paying Metrolink's extortionate prices for its totally shite service, you couldn't blame me for voting £#%&! You.

if you vote for this congestion charge you are a @#%&!.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Well, that's the problem. We should not be voting Yes or No to investing in public transport at all, we should be voting yes or no to having a congestion charge. But they have forced it into 'vote Yes or the transport system gets it'. I am angry at the way it's been presented to us, it's a sort of blackmail.

that's a perfectly good point. i have no idea what the campaign has been like (though i tend to ignore campaigns anyway) and am just commenting on the general principles.

It's simplistic and wrong to assume that people are only complaining because they are lazy, evil polluters. I mean, what a childish way of looking at it. If I were to be paying £40 a month with next to no benefit, after years of paying Metrolink's extortionate prices for its totally shite service, you couldn't blame me for voting £#%&! You.

i don't make that assumption. i think motorists, as far as their motoring goes, are selfish and lazy in large part, but that's not the reason they might vote one way or the other.

6bn and rising was spent on a war in Iraq.

1bn was requested to improve Manchester's public transport but it was deemed 'too expensive'.

Now, we're being given 2.8bn to install a congestion charge. Over 1 billion of which will have to be repaid. Interest on that pa...50 million. Congestion charge isn't going to cover that AND transport improvements.
Transport tariffs are capped - but for how long?
The money will be raised through council tax hikes. That should be fun eh?
We should get the transport improvements first and then a congestion charge.

People will pay the congestion charge until there is better public transport. Simple as that.

I can just imagine people ditching their cars, only to find that public transport is over crowded (because there are no improvements forthcoming!), then go back to their cars. Catch 22.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

how can you possibly resent road tax but voluntarily pay for satellite television?

it really is a £#%&!ed up world

:shakehead:

Originally Posted by Spiffy

I won't implode, I've said for years the poor should be made to catch the bus so I can drive a little bit quicker.

most of the people you are stuck behind are middleish incomed lemming commuters though, surely

Originally Posted by denis lawless

:shakehead:

thought you'd pick up on that Lawless


and ignore the rest of the post :shakehead:

Originally Posted by denis lawless

went to work to earn some money to buy a car.......paid income tax and national insurance you went to work solely to buy a car? work on your back, do you? isolated example of spending money earned

went to buy a car and paid VAT as you do on almost everything else. yeah, and in this example added to the cost of motoring which im highlighting


had to get Road Tax too £#%&!ing right only a small fraction of which is ploughed back into road/transport improvements

then insurance...plus insurance tax (5%)drive like a £#%&!ing maniac (see below) you'd better get insurance. full no claims actually but still almost 600 quid

then i went and put some petrol in it....80% of which is Tax not a hybrid or electric, then? not lpg? not diesel? no...just your regular motor

drove home at 31mph and got a speeding (tax) fine yeah, right i know you poles - 131 more like. drive like a £#%&!ing lunatic, you deserve everything you get yes i DO actually own the road and the 6 points i have are totally unjustified ....in one case i was actually avoiding an accident when a stupid sandal wearing @#%&! pulled out of a side street right infront of me.....easier to nick me for speeding that to pull them for dangerous driving

now im sat on the M60 ...and its cost me a congestion charge stop congesting you won't have to pay it i hope every £#%&!er leaves their car at home for a month, clogs the transport system to £#%&! and costs the government millions in fuel duty ...now that would be funny

yeah..im a selfish @#%&!......

£#%&! IT.....i'll pack my job in.....go on the dole and catch a tram to sign on who said anything about the dole? fed up being £#%&!ed over at every turn ....maybe i could just do £#%&! all and let someone else pay for my existance, seems to be all the rage these days, becoming state dependant....a bit scouse maybe but Throbs will love me for it

.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

most of the people you are stuck behind are middleish incomed lemming commuters though, surely



thought you'd pick up on that Lawless


and ignore the rest of the post :shakehead:

Yeah but those with big mortgages and/or kids will have to get the bus. That or £#%&! off the family holiday.

I wonder how many people will buy a cheap car, not register, insure or maintain it and just drive in anyway knowing the cameras will be ineffective in stopping them? That will make worse pollution and not having insurance is not great either. I bet they've not even thought of this.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

Yeah but those with big mortgages and/or kids will have to get the bus. That or £#%&! off the family holiday.

I wonder how many people will buy a cheap car, not register, insure or maintain it and just drive in anyway knowing the cameras will be ineffective in stopping them? That will make worse pollution and not having insurance is not great either. I bet they've not even thought of this.

i've heard some of the money will be spent on ramping up the number of average speed cameras and automatic vehicle ID equipment

drive carefully

Originally Posted by denis lawless

fed up being £#%&!ed over at every turn ....maybe i could just do £#%&! all and let someone else pay for my existance, seems to be all the rage these days, becoming state dependant....a bit scouse maybe but Throbs will love me for it

Bleed the bastards dry Denis (not realising I mean the British tax payers) You'll be this forum's hero. They £#%&!ing love people who sit back and do £#%&! all but take on here. Don't forget when you get fined for not putting rubbish in the right bin to blame Thatcher, or the motorist either is OK. As a reserve in case the person you are arguing against actually knows something, blame the monarchy and or immigration.