food for thought - is parks more regular appearances in the team a sign of united not playing the..

'united way' ?

in saf's press conference he was ask about parks qualities and saf said...
'he is good off the ball, his movement off the ball is brilliant....'

going back through the years we have had kanchelskis, giggs, sharpe, ronaldo
wide players who could hurt you and were a genuine attacking threat WITH THE BALL!

park started on wednesday as a 3rd forward.(barcas 3 forwards were messi, eto'o and henry)

is park in the team to get goals or assists or to put the opposition under pressure??
are we now using one of our forward positions to stop the opposition instead of actually attacking them.
if a chance fell to anyone on friday would you say park is the 3rd person you would want it to fall to?

he is a decent squad player ill give you that but should he really be starting big games for united?
if he should, what position would you like him to 'make his own'

im not making a case for nani as he hasnt been far to inconsistent and quite frankly stupid when in the team but honestly is park a 'united winger'

would he make the barcelona squad? could you see barca playing him with messi and eto'o up top in next years ecl final?

personally i think the fact he is a mainstay in the team indicates we are going backwards or gearing up to be 'efficient' in games and not expressing ourselves in the 'united way'

i think its a pretty valid question tbh.

Got a bbq today.

Originally Posted by marlo

'united way' ?

in saf's press conference he was ask about parks qualities and saf said...
'he is good off the ball, his movement off the ball is brilliant....'

going back through the years we have had kanchelskis, giggs, sharpe, ronaldo
wide players who could hurt you and were a genuine attacking threat WITH THE BALL!

park started on wednesday as a 3rd forward.(barcas 3 forwards were messi, eto'o and henry)

is park in the team to get goals or assists or to put the opposition under pressure??
are we now using one of our forward positions to stop the opposition instead of actually attacking them.
if a chance fell to anyone on friday would you say park is the 3rd person you would want it to fall to?

he is a decent squad player ill give you that but should he really be starting big games for united?
if he should, what position would you like him to 'make his own'

im not making a case for nani as he hasnt been far to inconsistent and quite frankly stupid when in the team but honestly is park a 'united winger'

would he make the barcelona squad? could you see barca playing him with messi and eto'o up top in next years ecl final?

personally i think the fact he is a mainstay in the team indicates we are going backwards or gearing up to be 'efficient' in games and not expressing ourselves in the 'united way'

i think its a pretty valid question tbh.

united don't play with two wingers any more, so the answer is no, park isn't a united winger.

he was actually a lot more attacking under hiddink at psv and for s korea. in some games for united, like rooney at times, he sometimes gives the impression of being more concerned with tactical discipline than self-expression.

i'm slowly leaning, very tentatively, towards the opinion that fergie's focus on success in europe and the tactical approach needed to achieve it is creating a much more controlled, less expressive, more efficient, less entertaining united. perhaps it's just a season, perhaps it's other factors, perhaps we'll see something more full-blooded next year. perhaps.

the thing is, i don't believe english clubs achieve success in europe by trying to adopt that style. liverpool and chelsea have shown that the traditional english game - high-tempo, aggressive, with intense pressing high up the field - can cause teams like barca all sorts of problems.

of course, it's ironic that in the cl final it wasn't barca's possession football that caused united the problems. it was barca's very english willingness to press united all over the park when they lost possession. very similar to what liverpool did to us this season - i wouldn't be surprised if guardiola had watched that game, and a few other united defeats like fulham, celtic last year etc and recognised that united don't like to be pressed and harried in that way.

anyway, it is a valid question, i think. next season will show us, i suppose. i also wonder if nani had shown anything like the progress we all hoped for this season whether park would have got anything like the number of starts he has...

Originally Posted by borsuk

of course, it's ironic that in the cl final it wasn't barca's possession football that caused united the problems.

correct - and vida for one really doesn't seem to like it.

I'm a big fan of Park & often praise him on here, but he shouldn't have started on Wednesday.
We should have sent the big guns out & tried to win the game.

I know he played & played very well in both games against Arsenal, but this was the Final & a one-off game.

It should be less about 'tactics' & more about attacking threat & attitude.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

I'm a big fan of Park & often praise him on here, but he shouldn't have started on Wednesday.
We should have sent the big guns out & tried to win the game.

I know he played & played very well in both games against Arsenal, but this was the Final & a one-off game.

It should be less about 'tactics' & more about attacking threat & attitude.

i kind of agree, though i had park in the midfield three in place of giggs and berbles ahead. agree with the sentiment, though.

i'd love us to trust to our strengths rather than worrying about other teams'. even if it means relatively less success in europe.

Park = McClair. Great at making runs, intelligent, likeable and a hard worker but ultimately nowhere near good enough for a European final against one of the best teams in the world.

the biggest game in club football I think united should have gone 'all in'

park is a decent player but he is deployed from a tactical point of view.

its as if saf though we 5 midfielders against barcas 3 which isn't right imo.

people have objected to mourinho taking over because he will play football to win not to entertain I think we over the last two seasons in the ecl we have been a mourinho type side.

last year against barca will mirrored chelsea against them this year.
'defended in spain and then got infront by screamer at home then defended for 70 minutes'

i think park starting as a forward while berbs and tevez and even nani sit on the bench is a sign of a different united imo.

Problem that we have created for ourselves is the need to sacrifice cutting edge for defensive stability.

We, as fans, have loved Ronnie's output the last few seasons and are prepared to largely turn a blind eye to his defensive frailties but Ferguson can't, because he realizes that having two of this type of player operating wide midfield leaves us massively exposed on both flanks and the top teams would punish that. So the irony is that having Ronaldo in the team almost forces you to have a Park on the other flank (It's no coincidence that their playing styles are almost polar opposites).

So if you enter a big game like this concerned about protecting both wide areas what do you do? The answer is to play Park wide right (even though you know that he doesn't have much of a cutting edge), play Rooney wide left (even though you know that it's not his favoured or most productive position) and stick Ronaldo up top. It didn't work this time.

Made me smile when I heard Ronnies quotes about bad tactics when those tactics are only in place to accomodate the fact that he won't defend.

I also think it would be easier to accept Parks shortcomings if we had a right-back who was more of a threat overlapping in the way that GNev used to as it would offset them to a degree. Not slagging O'Shea, he's done a fine job stepping up, but it's not his position.

Should never have sold Becks

Originally Posted by utd99

Problem that we have created for ourselves is the need to sacrifice cutting edge for defensive stability.

We, as fans, have loved Ronnie's output the last few seasons and are prepared to largely turn a blind eye to his defensive frailties but Ferguson can't, because he realizes that having two of this type of player operating wide midfield leaves us massively exposed on both flanks and the top teams would punish that. So the irony is that having Ronaldo in the team almost forces you to have a Park on the other flank (It's no coincidence that their playing styles are almost polar opposites).

So if you enter a big game like this concerned about protecting both wide areas what do you do? The answer is to play Park wide right (even though you know that he doesn't have much of a cutting edge), play Rooney wide left (even though you know that it's not his favoured or most productive position) and stick Ronaldo up top. It didn't work this time.

Made me smile when I heard Ronnies quotes about bad tactics when those tactics are only in place to accomodate the fact that he won't defend.

I also think it would be easier to accept Parks shortcomings if we had a right-back who was more of a threat overlapping in the way that GNev used to as it would offset them to a degree. Not slagging O'Shea, he's done a fine job stepping up, but it's not his position.

Should never have sold Becks

Good shout.

The midfield should be that much more mobile & capable of handling a lack of defensive cover from Ronnie when Hargreaves is back, he's the only one who can make up enough ground & use the ball properly when he gets there.

Park shouldn't have started because he simply doesn't control a football well enough & create chances or score in abundance. He is the epitomy of 'squad player' & I really rate the guys input... but in a game you want to win in 90mins, rather than over 180mins with home & away conditions, I can't make a case.

Fergie's shift in focus comes partly from the success of the CL run(s) & the adage that if it aint broke don't fix it... but that's really in direct odds to the other football trueism that you can't stand still. The players evolve, the team evolves, but he didn't utilise the talent he's accumulated. How you can possibly have an inferiority complex & want to stop the oppo as opposed to wanting to cause them problems when we were reigning domestic, European & World Champions is a £#%&!ing mystery to me.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

Fergie's shift in focus comes partly from the success of the CL run(s) & the adage that if it aint broke don't fix it... but that's really in direct odds to the other football trueism that you can't stand still. The players evolve, the team evolves, but he didn't utilise the talent he's accumulated. How you can possibly have an inferiority complex & want to stop the oppo as opposed to wanting to cause them problems when we were reigning domestic, European & World Champions is a £#%&!ing mystery to me.

True, but to be fair Fergie clearly didn't want to stand still after last year. He invested heavily in a player with whom you sacrifice a lot defensively in order to give us more in terms of our forward play and establishing our own style, particularly in Europe. I really don't think it can be understated how underwhelmed he must be with Berbatov's form/impact to leave him out of the three last games in the CL run.

Who thought Fergie's tactics were wrong after 9 minutes ? At that stage I thought he had it spot on.

I can't recall a goal affecting the individual performances of players as much as that. They all just fell apart mentally.

And yes I know it was only 9 minutes !!

Originally Posted by borsuk

i'm slowly leaning, very tentatively, towards the opinion that fergie's focus on success in europe and the tactical approach needed to achieve it is creating a much more controlled, less expressive, more efficient, less entertaining united.

I can't argue with that and I think this has been clear for quite some time now. This seasons European campaign was hardly edge of your seat stuff. Neither was 2008 - our best, most entertaining performance of the campaign came in the final against Chelsea.

After years of playing expansive, attacking football in Europe and being killed by disciplined sides on the counter, I think we've given up playing the "United Way" in the European Cup. It's no surprise - the success of all the English clubs in Europe in recent years has been built on disciplined, defensive displays. Liverpool showed the way in 2005 with a fairly mediocre squad and Arsenal played 4-5-1 the following year to reach the final.

What I can't stand is that we don't even try to contest for the ball, especially against possession sides like Barca, Arsenal or even Porto. We just let them have the ball and rely on a hardworking midfield in front of our (usually excellent) defense - then look to break with Ronaldo, Rooney, Evra etc.

We also appear unable to play against sides that press the ball aggressively high up the pitch. Look what the scousers did to us at home. On wednesday it was the same - with little time on the ball, Vidic, Evra, Carrick...in fact, nearly all of them regularly gave the ball away in stupid areas.

good question.

but i think in that formation playing against an attacking team like Barca playing Park is a good option.

especially considering the only other option was Berbs.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

True, but to be fair Fergie clearly didn't want to stand still after last year. He invested heavily in a player with whom you sacrifice a lot defensively in order to give us more in terms of our forward play and establishing our own style, particularly in Europe. I really don't think it can be understated how underwhelmed he must be with Berbatov's form/impact to leave him out of the three last games in the CL run.

The dilemma of any manager to to try to utilize a players strengths while accomodating for their weaknesses and hope that it's more of the former and less of the latter. In the case of Ronaldo though this becomes more acute in the big games against the top sides because you know that they have the ability to capitalize on exposed areas, hence a team that smacked of accomodation.

Don't you think Ferguson would rather play Rooney in his preferred role? Have a natural centre forward up top? Have 2 wide midfielders who can both attack and defend? Of course he would.

Originally Posted by borsuk

i'd love us to trust to our strengths rather than worrying about other teams'. even if it means relatively less success in europe.

3 Cups in the competitions 53 years history is already a poor enough record for a Club of our size tbh

Originally Posted by utd99

The dilemma of any manager to to try to utilize a players strengths while accomodating for their weaknesses and hope that it's more of the former and less of the latter. In the case of Ronaldo though this becomes more acute in the big games against the top sides because you know that they have the ability to capitalize on exposed areas, hence a team that smacked of accomodation.

Don't you think Ferguson would rather play Rooney in his preferred role? Have a natural centre forward up top? Have 2 wide midfielders who can both attack and defend? Of course he would.

Well he is responsible for signing the players that are there.

what I can't understand is what is it that makes chelsea almost invincible to the pressing game both liverpool and barca play.

we all know if in one off games between chelsea and barca or chelsea v liverpool.our money would be on chelsea.

if saf is going to play this new way surely he needs to think of a counter for teams that press us.

personally i think its time to get a steady 11 and with minor changes if necessary.

chelsea, barca, liverpool all have an 11 we can near enough pick. we haven't. I've never liked it tbh

We have rarely had a midfield that fergie has fully trusted to go toe to toe with the very best in recent years. That is why for me a player like Park or Phil Neville/Fortune/O'Shea has often had to play midfield over the last 4/5 years.

08/09 Carrick, Fletcher much improved, but Anderson struggling and Hargreaves out. Scholes negligible at this point. Giggs having to play centrally a lot to add variety.

07/08 Scholes starting to be phased out, but still considered key in the run in but caused defensive problems but with Hargreaves, Carrick and Anderson playing well and good back up from Fletcher this is probably our strongest group of recent times.

06/07 Carrick and Scholes and not much behind them, Fletcher still evolving as a player, Carrick sometimes defers to a Scholes who though having a renaissance has to be compensated for.

05/06 Keane on his last legs, Scholes looks the same, both out at half season, Giggs and O'Shea take responsibility. Fletcher going through The Scottish Player Years.

04/05 Keane clearly on the wane, Scholes starting to regress, Djemba Djemba absolute turd, the likes of Kleberson, Miller getting games, Phil Neville having to play a lot in midfield.

03/04 Butts last season, signs of Keane struggling, the replacements Djemba and Kleberson not good enough, Fortune and Neville as back ups.

02/03 A strong pool, Veron, Butt, Keane, Scholes, Veron actually has a good first half of the season before injury wrecks it, Butt and Keane have injury problems, but Scholes is superb, adapted to a further forward role and along with Van Nistelrooy is the key player in winning Utd the title. This side plays a great Madrid team, of similar reputation to the Barca side of now and takes them on in an attacking contest, goes out. Mediocre defence and keeper issues the main problem.



Only 07/08 in recent years has the midfield group been playing well enough or strong enough in terms of numbers and quality for Utd to really consistently dominate the best sides they played in midfield.

After 02/03 the standard of the midfield pool decreased dramatically. Loss of form, ageing and poor transfer dealings meant that until Carrick was signed Utd went backwards in that area.

The potential of the group now, Hargreaves, Fletcher, Anderson and Carrick is exciting. if Hargreaves can return to his top level and stay fit, and Anderson develops into the player we all hope he can be Utd should have the firepower in midfield to at least achieve parity against anyone. Perhaps another ball playing midfielder could be added, someone who can run with the ball from deep, but those 4 give Utd good options.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

True, but to be fair Fergie clearly didn't want to stand still after last year. He invested heavily in a player with whom you sacrifice a lot defensively in order to give us more in terms of our forward play and establishing our own style, particularly in Europe. I really don't think it can be understated how underwhelmed he must be with Berbatov's form/impact to leave him out of the three last games in the CL run.

I can see why he'd of left him out of the Arsenal games, they're soft as shite & he wanted some power in there. Fair enough. It worked a treat as well, however, it was a home & away contest & the 2nd game we would be counter attacking.

In a one off, 90min game, against Spanish oppo - against whom we traditionally struggle to score against, why the £#%&! would you want more of the same? 1 goal in the last 7 games against Spanish sides (I think) & we were playing the very best of them as well after literally squeaking past them last season. Berbatov should have played, because he'd of kept the ball - but Fergie bottled it & played Park who did sweet £#%&! all. I don't give a £#%&! if he works hard off the ball or his movement is great, he can't trap a football & retain possesion. We used to be a side that passed, and passed & passed & engineered situations where our wingers would get one on one with their counterparts & create something. We've become pragmatic at capitalising on others mistakes & 'keeping it solid' ourselves. The potential of the side is unequalled, the squad is huge & packed with talent, and it's stifled to play this way.