Remember when you said moyes wouldn't attract players?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Moyes won't attract any top player at the moment; Manchester United will. Only a handful of managers have that extra pulling power for top players, he's not one yet. But it was always a weak point anyway. If the money and ambition is there, they'll come.

But I suspect part of the reason United are throwing money at the situation in January is because finishing top four does have a huge impact on signing players, especially of the caliber we're led to believe they're hoping to bring in during the summer.

i suspect it's because they want to sign some top players

the reasons are completely obvious - United have a new manager and he will be allowed to build his own team.

people have wasted a hell of a lot of words casting doubt on that but deep down they know it's true.

i doubt united anticipated being quite so far off the pace at this stage, but by the same token their much criticised late transfer scurry in the summer shows that they clearly had some concerns. the confidence and fitness issues that affected the squad are in addition to the double whammy of fergie's exit automatically bringing less certainty within United's camp and great motivation to take advantage amongst United's rivals - all of whom have upped their game this season and all of whom deserve credit for that. now it's over to United to make up for lost time. they need goals first and foremost and Mata's vision and ability to play the right pass at the right moment goes a long way to addressing that issue

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i suspect it's because they want to sign some top players

the reasons are completely obvious - United have a new manager and he will be allowed to build his own team.

people have wasted a hell of a lot of words casting doubt on that but deep down they know it's true.

i doubt united anticipated being quite so far off the pace at this stage, but by the same token their much criticised late transfer scurry in the summer shows that they clearly had some concerns. the confidence and fitness issues that affected the squad are in addition to the double whammy of fergie's exit automatically bringing less certainty within United's camp and great motivation to take advantage amongst United's rivals - all of whom have upped their game this season and all of whom deserve credit for that. now it's over to United to make up for lost time. they need goals first and foremost and Mata's vision and ability to play the right pass at the right moment goes a long way to addressing that issue

Indeed, but usually a deal of this magnitude is left until the summer, especially with Mata being unavailable for the Champions League. I'm just saying that United find themselves in a position this year where we're a little desperate. Basically, signing one or more of the top players they have identified in the summer may be reliant on finishing top four. Hopefully Mata can help us do that.

As for Moyes building his own team, I think we all expect it to be the case. Personally, I think he'd ideally have demonstrated some exceptional qualities in his first season before being allowed to tear up a title-winning side and make it his own. But it doesn't surprise me.

it's a slight surprise that united are spending this big, just as it was a slight surprise they hired moyes (though we know why they did both).

I think the two facts are connected, though.

jose must be especially upset. he was apparently prepared to take on the united job even though we have stingy football-illiterate £#%&!stain owners. and now the @#%&!s have let moyes buy players for £27mio and £37mio. one of whom is just about worth what the other one cost, but still.....

I wouldn't say Fellaini is worth £37m tbh...

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Indeed, but usually a deal of this magnitude is left until the summer, especially with Mata being unavailable for the Champions League. I'm just saying that United find themselves in a position this year where we're a little desperate. Basically, signing one or more of the top players they have identified in the summer may be reliant on finishing top four. Hopefully Mata can help us do that.

As for Moyes building his own team, I think we all expect it to be the case. Personally, I think he'd ideally have demonstrated some exceptional qualities in his first season before being allowed to tear up a title-winning side and make it his own. But it doesn't surprise me.

i doubt missing out on the cl this season would deter any of united's targets. for example, shaw is hardly going to refuse an offer based only on that. missing out could allow other sides a bit more bargaining power over us, and could be a window for rival clubs shopping at the world cup, but that's a dodgy game anyway.

i doubt lads at dortmund or schalke would be put off either.


as far as ripping up the title winning squad goes, people keep overlooking the fact that the spine of that side - Ferdinand, Carrick and RvP - have all missed a shed load of games this season, and the veteran players are reaching their natural end. It's not a case of ripping the side up, it's replacing a couple of deadwood pieces with quality alongside the natural evolution of the rest of it.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i doubt missing out on the cl this season would deter any of united's targets. for example, shaw is hardly going to refuse an offer based only on that. missing out could allow other sides a bit more bargaining power over us, and could be a window for rival clubs shopping at the world cup, but that's a dodgy game anyway.

i doubt lads at dortmund or schalke would be put off either.


as far as ripping up the title winning squad goes, people keep overlooking the fact that the spine of that side - Ferdinand, Carrick and RvP - have all missed a shed load of games this season, and the veteran players are reaching their natural end. It's not a case of ripping the side up, it's replacing a couple of deadwood pieces with quality alongside the natural evolution of the rest of it.

the quad looks tricky…...

Originally Posted by Don Brodka

Was £#%&! all to do with Moyes

Therefore having moyes as manager will not stop us attracting top players, which is an argument some people were making by claiming top players wouldn't want to play for him. But now that's been proved wrong, no doubt the goalposts will be shifted so the slagging of moyes can continue.

Some people didn't get the toy they wanted so they'll scream and scream and act like spoilt @#%&!s until they get what they want.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i doubt missing out on the cl this season would deter any of united's targets. for example, shaw is hardly going to refuse an offer based only on that. missing out could allow other sides a bit more bargaining power over us, and could be a window for rival clubs shopping at the world cup, but that's a dodgy game anyway.

i doubt lads at dortmund or schalke would be put off either.


as far as ripping up the title winning squad goes, people keep overlooking the fact that the spine of that side - Ferdinand, Carrick and RvP - have all missed a shed load of games this season, and the veteran players are reaching their natural end. It's not a case of ripping the side up, it's replacing a couple of deadwood pieces with quality alongside the natural evolution of the rest of it.

I'm not saying it will deter anyone or everyone, but it could. Certainly a big-name player such as Vidal or Kroos could easily think twice about United if there's no Champions League football and we look like we're going backwards under an unproven manager.

Fair enough about the rebuilding. But if we don't show signs of strong improvement between now and the end of the season, he'll have been fortune to have found perhaps the only major club around that would afford him the trust to perform that task of re-shaping and replacing those great players. I'm not sure there's another major club where he'd get that backing.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'm not saying it will deter anyone or everyone, but it could. Certainly a big-name player such as Vidal or Kroos could easily think twice about United if there's no Champions League football and we look like we're going backwards under an unproven manager.

Fair enough about the rebuilding. But if we don't show signs of strong improvement between now and the end of the season, he'll have been fortune to have found perhaps the only major club around that would afford him the trust to perform that task of re-shaping and replacing those great players. I'm not sure there's another major club where he'd get that backing.

the football world knows that United are adjusting after the retirement of a manager who'd been there for a generation. ability is not enough, the challenge is to maintain United's success. not every player will be up for it.

nice to see you complimenting United again at the end

Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger

Some people didn't get the toy they wanted so they'll scream and scream and act like spoilt @#%&!s until they get what they want.

Like you do with Fergie and the Owners?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

the football world knows that United are adjusting after the retirement of a manager who'd been there for a generation. ability is not enough, the challenge is to maintain United's success. not every player will be up for it.

nice to see you complimenting United again at the end

I'm undecided on whether I think it's a compliment, tbh. On one hand it's what they probably should do having banged on about committing to a manager, but you also want to be wary of stunting your own progress through a stubborn sense of self-righteousness.

That said, rebuilding is of course bigger than the manager. By getting a few genuinely top class players or potentially top class players in, we're making United stronger, whether Moyes is the man to make it work or not. Also, the sooner we strengthen the sooner Moyes can begin to be judged more unequivocally. It's only six points between us and the scousers, with them still to come to OT. Forget the first half of the season, the new challenge with Mata and hopefully others on board is to close those three points in the other 15 games. It's another test for him to take and failure could lead to at least a temptation to consider life without him.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'm undecided on whether I think it's a compliment, tbh. On one hand it's what they probably should do having banged on about committing to a manager, but you also want to be wary of stunting your own progress through a stubborn sense of self-righteousness.

That said, rebuilding is of course bigger than the manager. By getting a few genuinely top class players or potentially top class players in, we're making United stronger, whether Moyes is the man to make it work or not. Also, the sooner we strengthen the sooner Moyes can begin to be judged more unequivocally. It's only six points between us and the scousers, with them still to come to OT. Forget the first half of the season, the new challenge with Mata and possibly others on board is to close those three points in the other 15 games.

it certainly is a compliment

and never ever forget the first half of this season

just because a lot of united fans have spat the dummy and completely failed to acknowledge the good things they've seen, or recognise at all those that they are blind to, this last 6 months will prove crucial in everything that follows. and make no mistake, without the very significant number of small victories, and the crucial extended runs of good results, together with the excellent champions league group performance, things could have been a hell of a lot worse, given the piss-poor reaction to the change of manager by so many of the players and the steep learning curve of the manager himself.

moyes hasn't made the fan-friendly noises in news conferences that so many so crave. there has been no equivalent of the "i hope it's not 25 years" line from fergie and no picking a fight with city yet to rival fergie's anfield moment. and even when he's laughed at the officials or has digs in the media he's been laughed at by the top reds for it, even when it was blatantly true.

this window has shown that even if incredulity was a fair response from united's fans to the summer window, the inference taken as fact from that - that United have no ambition to retain top dog status - has been completely wrong. you are right to suggest that moyes can be judged unequivocally only once the club have backed him in the transfer market. judging him absolutely without that would be a definition of ignorance.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

it certainly is a compliment

and never ever forget the first half of this season

just because a lot of united fans have spat the dummy and completely failed to acknowledge the good things they've seen, or recognise at all those that they are blind to, this last 6 months will prove crucial in everything that follows. and make no mistake, without the very significant number of small victories, and the crucial extended runs of good results, together with the excellent champions league group performance, things could have been a hell of a lot worse, given the piss-poor reaction to the change of manager by so many of the players and the steep learning curve of the manager himself.

moyes hasn't made the fan-friendly noises in news conferences that so many so crave. there has been no equivalent of the "i hope it's not 25 years" line from fergie and no picking a fight with city yet to rival fergie's anfield moment. and even when he's laughed at the officials or has digs in the media he's been laughed at by the top reds for it, even when it was blatantly true.

this window has shown that even if incredulity was a fair response from united's fans to the summer window, the inference taken as fact from that - that United have no ambition to retain top dog status - has been completely wrong. you are right to suggest that moyes can be judged unequivocally only once the club have backed him in the transfer market. judging him absolutely without that would be a definition of ignorance.

I said I wasn't sure whether I thought it was a compliment. I fully expect you to

I don't know if things could have gone much worse, tbh. In other words, I don't think it's really possible under any manager for United to not put a few wins together to keep themselves out of the bottom half of the table. I think it's been a disaster.

As for how he's judged, any manager is open to judgement on what he does with what he has. This regular notion that managers are entitled to spend a load of money before being judged is probably part of the reason this country doesn't produce any decent managers. As if demonstrating that you can unite players, make them better individually and collectively, put together a strategy etc is all dependent on money. That he hasn't had to demonstrate those skills at United before being handed £100m+ is strange to me. But as I said before, we're making United stronger in the process, so even if we soon find that Moyes isn't the man, the next guy will be in a good position.

so did anyone actually say moyes wouldn't attract players?

throb still can't admit moyes is a complete £#%&! up.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I said I wasn't sure whether I thought it was a compliment. I fully expect you to

I don't know if things could have gone much worse, tbh. In other words, I don't think it's really possible under any manager for United to not put a few wins together to keep themselves out of the bottom half of the table. I think it's been a disaster.

As for how he's judged, any manager is open to judgement on what he does with what he has. This regular notion that managers are entitled to spend a load of money before being judged is probably part of the reason this country doesn't produce any decent managers. As if demonstrating that you can unite players, make them better individually and collectively, put together a strategy etc is all dependent on money. That he hasn't had to demonstrate those skills at United before being handed £100m+ is strange to me. But as I said before, we're making United stronger in the process, so even if we soon find that Moyes isn't the man, the next guy will be in a good position.

i absolutely do think it's a compliment. as far as the emboldened part goes, i find that you seem to cut part of the structure out of the loop, where in reality at united it is not just manager and players but also manager and executives - where other top clubs pick the players the manager will be expected to work with at united the manager does that, which is why judging him before he's had the chance to do that is ridiculous and why the club themselves were highly unlikely to do. circumstances that could potentially have led them down such a route would largely involve him losing the dressing room - as you have regularly suggested is the problem. at least that little theory can be put to bed by the acquisition of Mata off the back of the Fellaini deal anyway.

as i said, people don't seem to want to acknowledge - or even to see - any positives, but as far as the extended runs united have had, 2 defeats in 20 was a key one, ended in unfortunate defeat at home to spurs. people then pounced on a couple of cup defeats that ordinarily would have been given nothing like as much importance - the context of that focus is brought into sharp context by the near blanking of the excellent CL group performance. the chelsea game saw us looking impotent up front, but passing the ball pretty well in general play. no-one would really be surprised at United struggling to score goals with both RvP and Rooney out, of course.

Originally Posted by jem

so did anyone actually say moyes wouldn't attract players?
.

no. never happened. no-one ever said that would be the case. of course not. ever.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

no. never happened. no-one ever said that would be the case. of course not. ever.

don't spose you've got any quotes, have you?

Originally Posted by jem

don't spose you've got any quotes, have you?

i wouldn't bother even if i thought you actually gave a shit either way

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

i absolutely do think it's a compliment. as far as the emboldened part goes, i find that you seem to cut part of the structure out of the loop, where in reality at united it is not just manager and players but also manager and executives - where other top clubs pick the players the manager will be expected to work with at united the manager does that, which is why judging him before he's had the chance to do that is ridiculous and why the club themselves were highly unlikely to do. circumstances that could potentially have led them down such a route would largely involve him losing the dressing room - as you have regularly suggested is the problem. at least that little theory can be put to bed by the acquisition of Mata off the back of the Fellaini deal anyway.

as i said, people don't seem to want to acknowledge - or even to see - any positives, but as far as the extended runs united have had, 2 defeats in 20 was a key one, ended in unfortunate defeat at home to spurs. people then pounced on a couple of cup defeats that ordinarily would have been given nothing like as much importance - the context of that focus is brought into sharp context by the near blanking of the excellent CL group performance. the chelsea game saw us looking impotent up front, but passing the ball pretty well in general play. no-one would really be surprised at United struggling to score goals with both RvP and Rooney out, of course.

We don't really know how he's being judged within the club. I doubt his utter failure to get a reasonable amount from what he has is going unnoticed, especially by a man in Fergie who knows the players well and holds them in high regard. Backing him to the press is inevitable and means little. Again, the purchasing of top players backs Moyes, but it also simply strengthens United, which is always needed.

I also expect Moyes is taking more responsibility behind the scenes. Publicly he appears happy to put any forthcoming improvement down to new arrivals, but I'm sure he knows full well that he needs to step his game up as much as anyone.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

We don't really know how he's being judged within the club. I doubt his utter failure to get a reasonable amount from what he has is going unnoticed, especially by a man in Fergie who knows the players well and holds them in high regard. Backing him to the press is inevitable and means little. Again, the purchasing of top players backs Moyes, but it also simply strengthens United, which is always needed.

I also expect Moyes is taking more responsibility behind the scenes. Publicly he appears happy to put any forthcoming improvement down to new arrivals, but I'm sure he knows full well that he needs to step his game up as much as anyone.

you expect he's taking more responsibility than what?


the blip United are on at the moment is very normal for a team missing its top two strikers and lacking the rest of last season's spine.

United's position is almost entirely attributable to the poor start they made. the extended runs of 12 undefeated and 2 defeats in 20 would sit well in any season, and the team were on a very promising run back into contention before that spurs game. our star striker hasn't kicked a ball since the start of december. it's no coincidence either that the team dropped 10pts out of 12 in the 1st 4 games after Carrick's injury in the win over Arsenal.