It's the official big one match thread Man Utd v Liverpool

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

so basically your argument is that we aren't very good, therefore we have not had bad luck

payer blatantly dived and what incidental minute contact there was was long after he had dived and the ball had gone...

on thursday fellaini was shoved over in the box and nothing was given. in the 1st leg there was minimal contact by depay but a penalty was given...

you mention the chelsea game, but iirc we should have had a pen in that match and also hit the inside of the post...

the more you practice the luckier you get, and it seems to be a fact that the worse you are the more unlucky you get - ask any relegated side. but you cannot win anything without good luck, and i fail to see why anyone gets so vexed by the mention of luck tbh... it's almost like people feel admitting we've had bad luck, especially with injuries, detracts from their credibility in slagging off the manager

No. My point is that we are shit with it without luck.

You've basically just ignored my wider point re payet, blind incidents. Whether you think it's a penalty or not (it is a penalty. You're wrong) is irrelevant. The lack of an award doesn't exactly back up the idea we've been unlucky with decisions. They could easily have been given against us of we were suffering rotten luck.

Ofcourse luck plays it's part. Football has a ball. Balls bounce. If we accept luck as part of it, then it becomes needless to point it out. Especially as frequently as it's mentioned on here in the context of defending lvg.

Overall, I don't think he's been unlucky at all.

billy, billy, billy.... I don't think van gaal (or siders) can use luck as an excuse - despite the injuries, his decisions have been bad. but you are undermining your credibility with this payet penalty thing. it was never a penalty; it was a dive. and it wasn't just a went down easy dive, like for the free kick from which he scored or the penalty liverpool got. it was a throwing himself to the ground before rojo was anywhere near him type of dive for which he should have been booked. it's not even a marginal call. it was a horrible and pathetic.

It was a dive from a known diver. Not exactly great decision making from Rojo was it? At times he makes Jones look cautious.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

It was a dive from a known diver. Not exactly great decision making from Rojo was it? At times he makes Jones look cautious.

He's crap.

Originally Posted by jem

billy, billy, billy.... I don't think van gaal (or siders) can use luck as an excuse - despite the injuries, his decisions have been bad. but you are undermining your credibility with this payet penalty thing. it was never a penalty; it was a dive. and it wasn't just a went down easy dive, like for the free kick from which he scored or the penalty liverpool got. it was a throwing himself to the ground before rojo was anywhere near him type of dive for which he should have been booked. it's not even a marginal call. it was a horrible and pathetic.

I simply don't agree.

'Dive' is vague. There's diving over an imaginary leg and throwing yourself down in desperation. Then there's exaggerating contact. The second is far more contentious. In that sense, Martial 'dived' Thursday. There's clearly contact and it clearly a penalty though. His 'dive' shouldn't detract from that.

As for payet, he is a serial diver and he most certainly exaggerates the contact, looks for the Penalty - whatever you want to call it....but there is contact and therefore a case for the penalty. From there, it's subjective as to whether the contact is enough to impede the player.

In the context of our supposed bad luck, it's one that would have been giving if everything was going against us.

Not that it's the be all and end all either, but Howard Webb agrees with me

I think it was a penalty. You don't. Throb doesn't. I'm clearly in the minority, but it doesn't matter in the wider context.

I suppose I just don't naturally gravitate towards talking about luck and refereeing decisions. I'm far more interested in the teams efforts and how to mitigate the impact of luck.



I'm less interested in if Payet dived as I am in why the hell Rojo goes fully committed to a ball he was favourite to win, inside our box with the score at 0-0 that's the stuff we can control and it's decisions like that that really cost us.

Hapless moments like that are a feature of this season. It reflects the complete lack of discipline and organisation in this team.

That ultimately comes back to the manager again.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Howard Webb agrees with me

Originally Posted by jem

Weird, I've just giffed the same to Ashton on the Mourinho thread.

His was much more deserved

Payet was falling over before Rojo even got to his knees

Originally Posted by dunk

Payet was falling over before Rojo even got to his knees

And the rest of the post? ....

What is this, take One Point Out Of Billy's Posts And Ignore The Wider Point.....um, Day !?

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

And the rest of the post? ....

What is this, take One Point Out Of Billy's Posts And Ignore The Wider Point.....um, Day !?

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but in that instance he was diving way, way too soon and would've ended up on the deck wether Rojo touched him or not, so no penalty. His own fault.

Really rate Rojo.

Originally Posted by dunk

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but in that instance he was diving way, way too soon and would've ended up on the deck wether Rojo touched him or not, so no penalty. His own fault.

That's the thing with diving. It sometimes puts doubt in the mind of the ref because of the theatrics. If he'd just carried on and fallen over Rojo's knee more 'naturally' it would have been clearer. Defeats the object.

I've just watched it again. He is starting to go down, but the contact from Rojo is so £#%&!ing stupid. He's never getting the ball.

Originally Posted by saffers

Really rate Rojo.

I quite like him too. Just can't stay fit.

On the rare occasions he has, he one of the few that actually puts himself on the line a bit. Prefer him at C.B.

Flawed, but has potential if he can stay fit and get some consistency

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

I've just watched it again. He is starting to go down,

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

I've just watched it again. He is starting to go down, but the contact from Rojo is so £#%&!ing stupid. He's never getting the ball.

you're not watching it correctly

payet completed his right leg stride, toed the ball on and then made no attempt to take the next stride with his left. it is a completely unnatural movement, simply waiting for a challenge that would otherwise not have impeded him in the slightest - not that it did anyway ffs. payer should have been booked for diving.

rojo is never getting the ball which is presumably why he pulls out of the challenge.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

you're not watching it correctly

payet completed his right leg stride, toed the ball on and then made no attempt to take the next stride with his left. it is a completely unnatural movement, simply waiting for a challenge that would otherwise not have impeded him in the slightest - not that it did anyway ffs. payer should have been booked for diving.

rojo is never getting the ball which is presumably why he pulls out of the challenge.

I'm not watching it correctly?

Did you really just say that?

I've already said that he's perfectly willing to go down, so I don't see why you're pointing out something I've already agreed with and insisting I haven't 'watched it correctly'

Rojo ATTEMPTS to pull out of the challenge and fails because he catches him. My issue is with him putting himself in that position in the first place. A reckless mistake in a season of many. And something that is far more to blame than luck. Which is the wider point you keep choosing to ignore to discuss the details of just one incident that I gave as an example regarding luck.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

I'm not watching it correctly?

Did you really just say that?

I've already said that he's perfectly willing to go down, so I don't see why you're pointing out something I've already agreed with and insisting I haven't 'watched it correctly'

Rojo ATTEMPTS to pull out of the challenge and fails because he catches him. My issue is with him putting himself in that position in the first place. A reckless mistake in a season of many. And something that is far more to blame than luck. Which is the wider point you keep choosing to ignore to discuss the details of just one incident that I gave as an example regarding luck.

typically evasive post tbh - let's talk about the wider issues blah blah blah

It was a dive - end of discussion.

Originally Posted by red in cumbria

It was a dive - end of discussion.

I think it was - 'til you bumped it.