bit quiet on here today...anyway, good to see Ruud

So he starts trying again and gets back into the Dutch Squad?

For the record he's a better goalscorer than Louis ever will be but we are a better team with Louis in it.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

One thing is for sure, we certainly haven't started this season with flowing football.

Yes, and we haven't started with Saha, Rooney and Ronaldo either. Honestly, if you think it's just a coincidence we've played better football without Ruud you must be absolutely mad.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

As I said, I'd sooner think we won the league last season because of our attitude, desire & quality of our midfield. Not because Ruud wasn't there.

We did, also our fluency in attack to the extent teams couldn't cope with us (starting from the very first game of the season, Fulham (h)). This would not have happened if Ruud had continued with us as he had towards the end of 05/06 where he was shameful (for one reason or another - but that's an argument for another time).

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Saha's impact for us was great, but from what I've seen of Ruud since he's been at Madrid he is simply the complete centre forward.
Great first touch, great movement, goals in the bucketload, great lay-offs & give&go's.

Exactly, you've noticed it at Madrid. Has anyone on this thread questioned his ability once? I loved the man and i really hope he is a success at madrid (he has already started supperbly), but we would not have won the league had Ruud stayed on at us, his fault or not.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

Ramone doesn't, he must, MUST be blind. One of my favourite ever players for United, but if he had stayed on for last year we wouldn't have won the league.

OK, we can make a case for how poor (on the whole) we were between August 03' & May 06' .....I wouldn't disagree with that, but I don't simply put it down to Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
I'm not saying he didn't turn in the odd bad game, but to suggest he held everyone back is ridiculous.
It's easy to point out the 4-2 Arsenal game at Highbury (certainly the highlight of that period for me) but Saha didn't play in that game.


I don't think we won the League last season because Van Nistelrooy left.
I think we won the League because of the form of the other players & I think that would have brought the best out in Ruud for us as it did Madrid last year.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

Come off it. You must be a complete moron to ignore Saha's impact on the team's results and style of play pre new year/Larsson?

Add to that the upturn in our play actually started the season before (around christmas) where we played a more fluid and attacking game with Louis up front. There was no Carrick or Scholes then but a midfield consisting of Giggs and O'Shea for the large part.

One thing a player like Louis brings to the team is the space he makes for Ronaldo, Rooney et al because when Ruud was there towards the end of his career at United, teams could virtually mark him out of the game on the halfway line because he had no pace. Try doing that to Louis and one ball over the top means you're £#%&!ed.

Ruud had to be the focal point of our attack in his last couple of seasons because he offered very little else apart from goalscoring and you'd be wasting players like Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Nani if their primary objective was to stick it on a plate for an ageing striker.

Originally Posted by Ether

Yes, and we haven't started with Saha, Rooney and Ronaldo either. Honestly, if you think it's just a coincidence we've played better football without Ruud you must be absolutely mad.

Well it can't be proved either way.
However, nobody can tell me that a front 2 of Van Nistelrooy & Rooney with Giggs, Ronaldo, Carrick & Scholesy (in the form they showed last season) wouldn't be a great attacking sight with tons of goals.

Saha did well for us at the begining of last season. I like the player & obvioulsy he made an impact for us against Sunderland when he came on, but for £#%&!s sake people are making him out to be something that he's not.
Anyone would think he was a £#%&!ing goal machine with a Cantona'esque talismanic quality.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

OK, we can make a case for how poor (on the whole) we were between August 03' & May 06' .....I wouldn't disagree with that, but I don't simply put it down to Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
I'm not saying he didn't turn in the odd bad game, but to suggest he held everyone back is ridiculous.
It's easy to point out the 4-2 Arsenal game at Highbury (certainly the highlight of that period for me) but Saha didn't play in that game.


I don't think we won the League last season because Van Nistelrooy left.
I think we won the League because of the form of the other players & I think that would have brought the best out in Ruud for us as it did Madrid last year.

What about Ronaldo? Do you in any way think Ruud held him back? I mean his form last year was somewhat outrageous.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

OK, we can make a case for how poor (on the whole) we were between August 03' & May 06' .....I wouldn't disagree with that, but I don't simply put it down to Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
I'm not saying he didn't turn in the odd bad game, but to suggest he held everyone back is ridiculous.
It's easy to point out the 4-2 Arsenal game at Highbury (certainly the highlight of that period for me) but Saha didn't play in that game.


I don't think we won the League last season because Van Nistelrooy left.
I think we won the League because of the form of the other players & I think that would have brought the best out in Ruud for us as it did Madrid last year.

It's not a case of it being Ruud's fault or not. You can never blame a whole team's performance on one player anyway.

I just think we were developing into an expansive side and it was passing Ruud by a little bit. He simply wasn't suited to the game that we were developing.

It needs to be acknowledged that we are able to play a different game without Ruud. We were trying it with him and it wasn't working. The team comes first and it was the right time to cash in. Had the stagnant form gone on any longer then his price tag would've gone down.
It was best for both parties.

Nobody's fault.

Besides which, there did seem a drop in his attitude and if he was causing problems in the dressing room (just rumours, I know) then that's another factor.

I don't think anyone should say we won the league because he was gone and we wouldn't if he was still here.

It's unecessary and unfair speculation to level at him.

He was a great player for us, but his time was up and I for one am glad that both he and us are benefitting from the move.

I still look upon him fondly and he's one of the finest goalscorers ever and I very proud he played for us and I like to see him doing well for Madrid.

That's how I wish all players who leave the club would get along.

We are a better side without him and he has become a better player than he was in his last season.

Win win.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

I don't simply put it down to Ruud Van Nistelrooy.
I'm not saying he didn't turn in the odd bad game, but to suggest he held everyone back is ridiculous.

You're right that he's been cited as one of the key things holding us back but to me, the other issue was the departure of Keane. With him gone and Ruud discarded within three months of each other, and both being in crucial positions, the team at the end of the season was pretty different to the turgid one we'd sat through.

To me, Ruud was one of two static players in crucial positions and the best teams don't carry passengers. His form at Madrid doesn't surprise me- when he quits there and goes elsewhere, he'll score a hatful. His instinct for goal is the best I've ever seen and arguably the best of the modern era in Europe. Who else comes close over the last 10 years? But we've all learned that a team isn't just the best 11 players, it's how they interact.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

What about Ronaldo? Do you in any way think Ruud held him back? I mean his form last year was somewhat outrageous.

I don't know about that. I think Ronaldo has just progressed the longer he's been at the Club.
I think his charector is very Beckham'esque in that he enjoys the bile of opponents & fans! It brought the best out of him last year. Hopefully all the personal awards he picked up won't revert him to 'over-doing' it & playing less for the team...although to be honest I doubt that very much.

06/07

1. Cristiano Ronaldo 23
2. Wayne Rooney 22
3. Louis Saha 13
4. Ole Solskjaer 11
5. Paul Scholes 7
6. Ryan Giggs 6
7. Michael Carrick 6
8. Park Ji Sung 5
9. John O'Shea 5
The rest 4 or less

05/06

1. RVN 24
2. Wayne Rooney 19
3. Louis Saha 15
4. Cristiano Ronaldo 11
The rest 4 or less


That is the difference.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Well it can't be proved either way.
However, nobody can tell me that a front 2 of Van Nistelrooy & Rooney with Giggs, Ronaldo, Carrick & Scholesy (in the form they showed last season) wouldn't be a great attacking sight with tons of goals.
Saha did well for us at the begining of last season. I like the player & obvioulsy he made an impact for us against Sunderland when he came on, but for £#%&!s sake people are making him out to be something that he's not.
Anyone would think he was a £#%&!ing goal machine with a Cantona'esque talismanic quality.

But Carrick aside, he did have those players with him and the team's goal return was poor and the play was stagnant.

Their form has improved dramatically over the last year, but seeing as Ruud wasn't there it's just as likely that they're benefitting from Ruud being gone too. It might just be coincidence, but it doesn't really matter - we all know they look better now. Shouldn't that be the be all and end all?
Whatever the reason for our upturn....we have an upturn!
Had we not then we may be scratching our heads as to why he left, but we're not. We're better since he left and so is he.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

06/07

1. Cristiano Ronaldo 23
2. Wayne Rooney 22
3. Louis Saha 13
4. Ole Solskjaer 11
5. Paul Scholes 7
6. Ryan Giggs 6
7. Michael Carrick 6
8. Park Ji Sung 5
9. John O'Shea 5
The rest 4 or less

05/06

1. RVN 24
2. Wayne Rooney 19
3. Louis Saha 15
4. Cristiano Ronaldo 11
The rest 4 or less


That is the difference.

Exactly. Whether or not that is down to RVN is irrelevant. This is a fact and no one would choose the latter column.


The team scored more goals without him. His fault or not.

Why speculate about how we would prosper with him here. It appears we've prospered pretty well anyway.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

Exactly. Whether or not that is down to RVN is irrelevant. This is a fact and no one would choose the latter column.


The team scored more goals without him. His fault or not.

Why speculate about how we would prosper with him here. It appears we've prospered pretty well anyway.

Yeah, well I can agree with that

It was a coincidence.
Nothing more.

You're not telling me that Ruud Van Nistelrooy isn't a better player than Saha or Larsson??
We'll never know of course, but with Ronaldo finally sorting his game out & the likes of Scholes, Rooney & Carrick in the side I think we still would have won the League last season with Ruud up front

Co-incidence . . .

Right, 3 seasons ago he gets injured, we then go on our best run, beating Arsenal 4-2 at Highbury along the way. This is still with Ronaldo not having perfected his game etc.

The season after that, Saha comes into the team we look much better, instead of having a lot of possession without anything coming of it.

Then Ruud leaves and we can attack teams with pace and power, and rip them apart in a way we hadn't seen for the last few seasons.

Nothing to do with co-incidence ffs. Yes - Saha is better for us, just accept it!