The Falklands War

Originally Posted by tim887

In fairness I did have to look that up.

"The Eloi are the spoiled, attractive upper class, living in luxury on the surface of the earth while the Morlocks live underground, tending machinery and providing food, clothing and infrastructure for the Eloi. Each class evolved and degenerated from different social classes as humans, a theme that reflects upon Wells' sociopolitical opinions."

I could live with that. Do you get access to the fit Morlocks though?

If I remember the story correctly the Morlocks ate them, like cattle.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Yes but the point was that there were diplomatic negotiations that could've avoided the conflict all together. Essentially a leaseback whereby the UK would have 100 years to depopulate the Falklands. This would'bve been good for Britain as it was a costly shithole and good for Argentina as they would've got what they wanted eventually without military action. Thatcher misjudged the Argie Junta and essentially blocked this giving them what they felt was no option but to invade and as a result us no option but to respond. It's sad 'cos it could all have been so easily avoided and all those lives need not have been lost.

It was thrown out after consultation with the islanders themselves. Personally I feel that in the same way the only bums reserve seats, only populations determine nationality. It's not like there was any conflict between two different nationality populations on the islands. There were circa 2000 people living there and they all wanted to be british. There had been little to no argentine claim or population ever really as the place was only ever used as a prison colony. The only people who had ever made anything of the place were the brits.

Originally Posted by red red robbo

It was thrown out after consultation with the islanders themselves. Personally I feel that in the same way the only bums reserve seats, only populations determine nationality. It's not like there was any conflict between two different nationality populations on the islands. There were circa 2000 people living there and they all wanted to be british. There had been little to no argentine claim or population ever really as the place was only ever used as a prison colony. The only people who had ever made anything of the place were the brits.

They were talking 100 years down the line yet veto power was essentially allowed to be given to people who would be long dead at the time. The foreign office thought this completely ridiculous, which of course it is.

it wasn't necessary to appease the Argentineans to prevent the invasion. Only to make it clear that there would be a response. They went in because they thought it would be easy pickings, that it would draw attention away from their own problems at home, and that the British would do nothing about it.

Originally Posted by Tropical

but with those examples you're looking at predicting a giant sweep of geopolitical movements and forces; whereas with the Falklands (unless you agree with Thornton, of course) you're looking at a small, localised and very specific sequence of events over a short period of time. So they don't really bear comparison.

what about the sunningdale agreement then? the general point i made about there always being a chance(s) to prevent a war by diplomatic means still stands.

Originally Posted by red red robbo

It was thrown out after consultation with the islanders themselves. Personally I feel that in the same way the only bums reserve seats, only populations determine nationality. It's not like there was any conflict between two different nationality populations on the islands. There were circa 2000 people living there and they all wanted to be british. There had been little to no argentine claim or population ever really as the place was only ever used as a prison colony. The only people who had ever made anything of the place were the brits.

If we can go back to Hong Kong parallel you find nobody on the island wanted the Chinese to take over there either. I don't think anybody wanted to listen though.
I and a lot of other people don't want a smoking ban but we've got to put up with it. Since when have 50 people farming sheep thousands of miles away been able to influence government policy?

Originally Posted by Tropical

it wasn't necessary to appease the Argentineans to prevent the invasion. Only to make it clear that there would be a response. They went in because they thought it would be easy pickings, that it would draw attention away from their own problems at home, and that the British would do nothing about it.

They were rather surprised at the response when it came in the Argentinian government.

The natives are restless tonight, sir
Cooped up on estates with no hope in sight
They need some kind of distraction
We can give them that
'Cause they'd kill if they only had something to kill for
They'd die if they only had something to die for
They'd cheer if they only had something to cheer for
We can give them that
So it's off to war we go (I couldn't believe it)
Bring out all the flags (I never believed it)
Fight the good fight

It's working like a dream, sir
Half the nation are hooked on the bait
Waiting for the next victorious instalment
We can give them that
'Cause it's no surprise that young men are heroes
It's no surprise that young men are strong
It's no surprise that young men are foolish
We've known that all along
Exciting pictures on News at Ten (I couldn't believe it)
Read all the crap on all the front pages (I never believed it)
Fight the good fight

Chorus:
Dead men in the South Atlantic
It's meant to warm our hearts
They think that they died for you and me
Oh God, what a farce, what a farce

And now it's the repeats
Plugging the Falklands and the Falklands' spirit
Show the pictures again and again
Till the next war comes around
'Cause we'll kill if we only have something to kill for
We'll die if we only have something to die for
We'll cheer if we only have something to cheer for
That is worthy of the name
Oh yes the next war (I never believed it)
See the propaganda in TV fiction (I never believed it)
Enemies with horns and tails

Chorus:
There are dead men in the South Atlantic
It's meant to warm our hearts
They think that they died for you and me
Oh God, what a farce, what a farce

There's crippled men back home in England
Doesn't it warm your hearts
They think they fought for peace and freedom
Poor boys, what a farce, what a farce

Originally Posted by dodger

Since when have 50 people farming sheep thousands of miles away been able to influence government policy?

Particularly Thatchers government who had no problem smashing communities a £#%&! of a lot closer to home.

Originally Posted by red red robbo

Do you really think that a few diplomatic moves here and there would really have been enough to stop either of the world wars. They were not results of a few isolated incidents but rather of large numbers of people being dissatisfied and long standing disagreements between nations. They may have been postponed or the focus moved from one hot spot to another, but to think that they could have been avoided all together is slightly naive I feel.

sorry, i may not have made my point very well. i was talking about british involvement in both conflicts to the degree that it actually happened, not preventing both world wars completely.

Gunshots shatter in the peace of night
Just another fire fight
For the people of this little town
But for the dying soldier
Well he's feeling ten years older
As he's lying face down on the ground
All the words that are in his head
And all the words his mother said
As she would put him to bed back home

Your daddy well he died in the Falklands
Fighting for another man's cause
And your brother he was killed in the Last War
And your mother well she's lying home alone

Every day she sees your face
On the picture on the fireplace
With your brother as he was leaving school
Then a day came five years ago
You said, "Mother, I need to know"
And you spoke the words your brother spoke before
"I seen the things my Daddy's done
And I've seen the medals Daddy's won
And I know that this is what he would have wanted for me."

But, your daddy well he died in the Falklands
Fighting for another man's cause
And your brother he was killed in the Last War
And your mother well she's lying home alone

Now she wonders at it all
Just in whose name do these brave young heroes fall
And how many more are going to answer that call
They're going to fight and die in another country's war
They're going die for a religion they don't believe in at all
They're die in a place they should never've been at all
Oh, never've been at all

'Cause, your daddy well he died in the Falklands
Fighting for another man's cause
And your brother he was killed in the Last War
And your mother well she's lying home alone

And your daddy well he died in the Falklands
Fighting for another man's cause
And your brother he was killed in the Last War
And your mother well she's lying home alone

what was andy walsh doing in 1982?

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Particularly Thatchers government who had no problem smashing communities a £#%&! of a lot closer to home.

Exactly, with no thought whatsoever to the feelings and rights thousands.

Originally Posted by Jack Duckworth

what about the sunningdale agreement then? the general point i made about there always being a chance(s) to prevent a war by diplomatic means still stands.

that's why I left that one out and responded to the other two examples you gave. Where my own point also still stands.



:goodhumourednongraphicsmiley:

Originally Posted by dodger

If we can go back to Hong Kong parallel you find nobody on the island wanted the Chinese to take over there either. I don't think anybody wanted to listen though.
I and a lot of other people don't want a smoking ban but we've got to put up with it. Since when have 50 people farming sheep thousands of miles away been able to influence government policy?

Ah, you are missing the point I think. I said personally I think it should be down to the population. Again, Hong Kong is slightly different in that everyone knew it was coming, where as the Falkland islanders thought they were sitting pretty.

Originally Posted by Jack Duckworth

sorry, i may not have made my point very well. i was talking about british involvement in both conflicts to the degree that it actually happened, not preventing both world wars completely.

Ha ha, not a hope. You know what we are like. If it's kicking off anywhere then we are gonna get ourselves involved.

We love a good fight you see

Originally Posted by red red robbo

I said personally I think it should be down to the population. .

I just disagree, those 200 people have no more right to decide British Foreign policy than any other such small group. Now there must be sensitivity to them, something the mining towns and villages of Britain didn't get, which was provided with a 100 year period to depopulate or accept Argentinian rule. This should've been accepted and we'd not have all those dead and wounded servicemen and all that expense.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

I just disagree, those 200 people have no more right to decide British Foreign policy than any other such small group. Now there must be sensitivity to them, something the mining towns and villages of Britain didn't get, which was provided with a 100 year period to depopulate or accept Argentinian rule. This should've been accepted and we'd not have all those dead and wounded servicemen and all that expense.

But if the Argies thought the same way then there wouldn't have been a problem would there.

And what if the French laid claim to Cymru. There's only a few thousand sheep £#%&!gers (derogatory comment for comedic effect only ) there, why should the rest of the country put it's self out to defend the rights of a small minority.

There is no blank and white, only shades of grey

Do you really like it, do you really like it
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like this
Do you really like it, is it, is it wicked
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like that (ooh)

Hardcore, you know the score
Rhymes so good they deserve an encore
All about the style we bring
We make you laugh like when you was a child again
Smooth, that's how I roll
I got so much soul when I step into the party
I wanna move somebody
I wanna move somebody

We're the masters of the ceremony
What does it take to be a garage MC
Personality
Originality
On a microphone they got to be

Capital U N the K N O I get down
Represents south London town
Pied Piper's on the decks
Rock the discoteque I'm back and it set

This one's for the heads out there
Party people can ya hear me clear
If you like it let me see your hands in the air
If you don't, y'all get the hell out of here

Bass is kickin', drums is drummin'
When you hear dididi I'm comin'
Shark P represents the west of London
DT, Piper, Melody and Unknown

We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like this
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like that
DT, Melody, Sharky P, Unknown to make you rock
Sing we come to sing
And dance 'til we drop

Do you really like it, do you really like it
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like this
Do you really like it, is it, is it wicked
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like that

Do you really like it, do you really like it
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like this
Do you really like it, is it, is it wicked
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like that

How you like my, how you like my
How you like me
Style, style, style

On your marks get set let's go
Five four three two one zero
Get on down and do the limbo
Here we go, here we go, here we go, bo
Down with the one and two
My selector you know the coup
Gonna get down with the original vibe
Pied Piper gonna make you high to the sky

Jump, don't ever stop
With a little bit of this, little bit of that
Jump, don't ever stop
With a little bit of this, little bit of that
Little bit of fun
Little bit of joke
Little bit of gin
Little bit of smoke
Jump, on the ones and twos
Let's go, let's go

Do you really like it, do you really like it
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like this
Do you really like it, is it, is it wicked
We're lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it
We're lovin' it like that

Oh, how you like my, how you like my
How you like my style
Oh, how you like my, how you like my
How you like my style
For the summertime crew, c'mon (ooh ooh)

Originally Posted by red red robbo

So you're saying that Thatcher let the Argies invade (indeed that it even could have been avoided) so she could then go down their and kick their backsides in order to win an election.

Hmmm, don't you think this is slightly far-fetched.

Not in the slightest