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Unread 13-01-2010, 02:43 PM
Johnaldo
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_cantona
Maybe the impending (?) sale of Carrington will make people realise how bad it has actually got.

Said it before but I just dont think that people (myself included) wanted to, or just didn't believe the horror stories about how bad it would get.
pure speculation? any sources, links and so on?
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 02:44 PM
My Name is Keith
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
Keith, with respect, you're missing the point.

The protest is not going, i.e. boycotting.

FC is what we (some of us) do as a replacement. FC is not what took us away, we walked away before FC was even formed and had FC not taken off or never even been thought of, I and lots of other people I know still wouldn't have stayed at OT.

This is a very important distinction.
With respect I'm not.

I recall going to the pre-Glazer take-over meetings at the time and the ideas were pretty much protest at the ground or form a new club.

I'm not making a major point. I admire those that gave it up on principle and I've no problem with FC having been to a fair few games etc myself.

My point is that I thought (and in my own head justified FC because I thought) FC was a protest club. I also thought, perhaps wrongly, that it was a protest against what was happening at United rather than modern football in general. And my point is that as a protest, it's safely removed from the Glazers view and is therefore quite invisible and silent.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 02:45 PM
Zorg
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

My point is that I thought (and in my own head justified FC because I thought) FC was a protest club. I also thought, perhaps wrongly, that it was a protest against what was happening at United rather than modern football in general. And my point is that as a protest, it's safely removed from the Glazers view and is therefore quite invisible and silent.
Can you define what a 'protest club' is/should be?
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 02:49 PM
El Chalten
 
Default

someone should sort out some mass walk out during future games.

i don't mean like 15 mins from the end cause that is the norm.

i'm talking about 5mins into the match.

burnley at home on Saturday would be as good a time as any. (it will be a shit match anyway! )

nft.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Child of Darkness
 
Default

I do think keiths got a point - the only people capable of organising and effectively co-ordinating the plan I outlined are now running FC. Those that didn't walk (whether to Fc or the pub and the important thing was to walk) have simply got to decide what there breaking point will be .

Now however with the media behind the story would be a great time to have another opo at getting our club back from the greedy people . the opportunity has arisen once again - how will you the idividual react is the point of my thread.

Armchair is also sadly right. The sheep like majority thought the takeover wouldn't really affect them . Despite the well reasoned arguments they just thought sod it I'm still gonna go to the match. They funded unlce malc whether conciously or not not they still handed the money over.

The only way to get the club back is to near as damn it bankrupt it . That will hurt.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Child of Darkness
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by el chalten
someone should sort out some mass walk out during future games.

I don't mean like 15 mins from the end cause that is the norm.

I'm talking about 5mins into the match.

Burnley at home on saturday would be as good a time as any. (it will be a shit match anyway! )

nft.
but you willl have still paid him!!!!!
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:02 PM
Sparky***
 
Default

Oh you'll see.

You'll all see.

Mwuahahaha.

Mwuuuuhahahahahahahahaha.

Aha.

Aha.

News.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:04 PM
El Chalten
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of Darkness
but you willl have still paid him!!!!!
who? i don't have a season ticket anymore.

i'm suggesting that people who go should walk out of every home game for the rest of the season.

i would.

nft.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Child of Darkness
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chalten
who? i don't have a season ticket anymore.

i'm suggesting that people who go should walk out of every home game for the rest of the season.

i would.

nft.
aah I see.

Ok it would be a start . but malc would have still banked the money from the ticket sales in the first place - thats my point better not going and picketing OT.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:09 PM
El Chalten
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of Darkness
aah I see.

Ok it would be a start . but malc would have still banked the money from the ticket sales in the first place - thats my point better not going and picketing OT.
i know that. but it would be at least making a point. especially with the media coverage.

it won't happen though, at least half the people who go to OT these days are £#%&!in clueless, hence why i stopped going 2 years back.

hey ho.

nft.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:24 PM
bobbledinho
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnaldo
pure speculation? any sources, links and so on?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...raining-ground
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:39 PM
crock
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of Darkness
I do think keiths got a point - the only people capable of organising and effectively co-ordinating the plan I outlined are now running FC. Those that didn't walk (whether to Fc or the pub and the important thing was to walk) have simply got to decide what there breaking point will be .

Now however with the media behind the story would be a great time to have another opo at getting our club back from the greedy people . the opportunity has arisen once again - how will you the idividual react is the point of my thread.

Armchair is also sadly right. The sheep like majority thought the takeover wouldn't really affect them . Despite the well reasoned arguments they just thought sod it I'm still gonna go to the match. They funded unlce malc whether conciously or not not they still handed the money over.

The only way to get the club back is to near as damn it bankrupt it . That will hurt.
But what (to you) represents getting our club back?

We (the collective majority) pissed away the chance of owning a substantial part of our club when it was a plc.

The only scenario I can now see is that when Glazer finally admits defeat then the club will be bought out by a rich arab or a russian oligarch ala Citeh and Chelsea.

All will be right for some then as the club will be splashing the cash again but does it represent 'getting the club back'?

I'm not having a go here and nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see uncle malc £#%&!ing off back to Florida with his tail between his legs but the alternatives won't (to me) represent getting the club back in any way.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:42 PM
believe
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crock
But what (to you) represents getting our club back?

We (the collective majority) pissed away the chance of owning a substantial part of our club when it was a plc.

The only scenario I can now see is that when Glazer finally admits defeat then the club will be bought out by a rich arab or a russian oligarch ala Citeh and Chelsea.

All will be right for some then as the club will be splashing the cash again but does it represent 'getting the club back'?

I'm not having a go here and nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see uncle malc £#%&!ing off back to Florida with his tail between his legs but the alternatives won't (to me) represent getting the club back in any way.
this is the big problem. the majority of our current support are only interested in seeing the big names and the match experience is only defined by success.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Bral
 
Default

Even if you give up your season ticket, there's at least 10 jcl's waiting in line ready to take your place & service the debt.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:45 PM
Zorg
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bral
Even if you give up your season ticket, there's at least 10 jcl's waiting in line ready to take your place & service the debt.
That doesn't really explain the tickets on open sale this season though.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:47 PM
believe
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bral
Even if you give up your season ticket, there's at least 10 jcl's waiting in line ready to take your place & service the debt.
are we still believing this myth?
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:48 PM
El Chalten
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by believe
this is the big problem. the majority of our current support are only interested in seeing the big names and the match experience is only defined by success.
tbf to the match going fan, as soon as the club started looking at the supporters as customers what do you expect them to do?

if i was paying a grand a year to go and watch utd, i would and do expect to see the best players, be entertained, etc.

it wasn't like that when i first started going as a teenager.

you went for the buzz and you knew it would be good no matter how shit the football was.

nft.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 03:51 PM
borsuk
 
Default

my tuppenceworth...


the supporters who care have little ability to influence the club in any way, unfortunately. this was shown very clearly during the takeover when united supporters - and, despite the failure, this is something to be proud of - did mobilise and oppose the takeover in ways that no other club has managed. for all the jibes about prawn cocktail sandwiches, ooters and all the rest of it we did more to fight that takeover than any other club has ever managed - a boycott, must, the phoenix fund, the setting up of fcum, direct action. it failed, but compare the way united supporters fought the takeover to the way all sorts of clubs have bent over and taken it up the arse (city numerous times, liverpool, chelsea, newcastle etc). of course, it's different when it's a sugar daddy putting cash in but even so i think as united supporters we did what we could.

but it failed. and the harsh truth is that there is nothing we can do which will not serve to hasten the very end which we fear. financial protests, if effective, would make the financial situation of the club even worse.

personally, i don't think there is a way to deal with this focusing on one club only. some kind of tacky short-term solution to the immediate problems might appear - i.e. somebody with an obscene amount of wealth might want to acquire the club as a toy - but imo the only way to deal with the issue longer-term is through regulation which affects all clubs. that's not as far-fetched as it might appear: there is quite a lot of pressure building for clubs to be more tightly regulated in terms of finances and debt, with the bundesliga especially active in trying to level the playing field and stop english clubs using debt to gain on-field advantages. uefa is similarly active.

what is needed imo is a broad approach which builds awareness and support for football reform which will affect all clubs. that means keeping the issue in the public eye (something united supporters are uniquely placed to do) by organised protests which cameras will pick up on: co-ordinated standing protests across the stadium, fans turning their backs on the pitch at the start of the game etc - anything that will keep the issue in the media. it mean united supporters backing ideas like platini's, not taking the easy route and slagging him off just for the sake of it. it means getting involved with groups like supporters direct, pressuring the all-party football group in the commons, pressuring the ministry of culture etc.

there is pressure building for sustainable models and stronger regulation, and there are alternative models to the english model of football speculation. that's the direction that united supporters should go in because action focusing on only our club will get nowhere.


btw, in answer to the original question, i joined shareholders united (vs the murdoch takeover) and was a member of must at the time of the glazer takeover, i paid into the phoenix fund, i supported fcum by being a member, despite living abroad and having no intention of going to a game, and i wrote as many letters and emails as i physically could at the time. but it was doomed to failure because no one club and remove itself from the system - united was a plc and that made it just another business.


if you want to do something, i recommend doing something about football as a whole. join supporters direct, read the all-party football group's report and start contributing to the pressure that exists to reform football. write to your mp. go and see him/her. write to your euro mp. go and see him/her - this is very important as i think the european parliament route is far more fruitful than westminster, because there is a solid constituency of euro mps from germany and other countries who are keen to reform the system.


and if you're thinking 'yeah, write letters, that'll help ' they you really are part of the problem. any reform - any reform - is impeded by the apathy of its proponents at least as much as by the entrenched positions and power of its opponents. you can only achieve these kinds of changes by doing what you can, even if it seems pointless, and trusting that your tiny effort will be replicated by millions of others.


imho.



http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/

http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp?cat=engwal
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 04:01 PM
Zorg
 
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by borsuk
my tuppenceworth...


the supporters who care have little ability to influence the club in any way, unfortunately. this was shown very clearly during the takeover when united supporters - and, despite the failure, this is something to be proud of - did mobilise and oppose the takeover in ways that no other club has managed. for all the jibes about prawn cocktail sandwiches, ooters and all the rest of it we did more to fight that takeover than any other club has ever managed - a boycott, must, the phoenix fund, the setting up of fcum, direct action. it failed, but compare the way united supporters fought the takeover to the way all sorts of clubs have bent over and taken it up the arse (city numerous times, liverpool, chelsea, newcastle etc). of course, it's different when it's a sugar daddy putting cash in but even so i think as united supporters we did what we could.

but it failed. and the harsh truth is that there is nothing we can do which will not serve to hasten the very end which we fear. financial protests, if effective, would make the financial situation of the club even worse.

personally, i don't think there is a way to deal with this focusing on one club only. some kind of tacky short-term solution to the immediate problems might appear - i.e. somebody with an obscene amount of wealth might want to acquire the club as a toy - but imo the only way to deal with the issue longer-term is through regulation which affects all clubs. that's not as far-fetched as it might appear: there is quite a lot of pressure building for clubs to be more tightly regulated in terms of finances and debt, with the bundesliga especially active in trying to level the playing field and stop english clubs using debt to gain on-field advantages. uefa is similarly active.

what is needed imo is a broad approach which builds awareness and support for football reform which will affect all clubs. that means keeping the issue in the public eye (something united supporters are uniquely placed to do) by organised protests which cameras will pick up on: co-ordinated standing protests across the stadium, fans turning their backs on the pitch at the start of the game etc - anything that will keep the issue in the media. it mean united supporters backing ideas like platini's, not taking the easy route and slagging him off just for the sake of it. it means getting involved with groups like supporters direct, pressuring the all-party football group in the commons, pressuring the ministry of culture etc.

there is pressure building for sustainable models and stronger regulation, and there are alternative models to the english model of football speculation. that's the direction that united supporters should go in because action focusing on only our club will get nowhere.


btw, in answer to the original question, i joined shareholders united (vs the murdoch takeover) and was a member of must at the time of the glazer takeover, i paid into the phoenix fund, i supported fcum by being a member, despite living abroad and having no intention of going to a game, and i wrote as many letters and emails as i physically could at the time. but it was doomed to failure because no one club and remove itself from the system - united was a plc and that made it just another business.


if you want to do something, i recommend doing something about football as a whole. join supporters direct, read the all-party football group's report and start contributing to the pressure that exists to reform football. write to your mp. go and see him/her. write to your euro mp. go and see him/her - this is very important as i think the european parliament route is far more fruitful than westminster, because there is a solid constituency of euro mps from germany and other countries who are keen to reform the system.


and if you're thinking 'yeah, write letters, that'll help ' they you really are part of the problem. any reform - any reform - is impeded by the apathy of its proponents at least as much as by the entrenched positions and power of its opponents. you can only achieve these kinds of changes by doing what you can, even if it seems pointless, and trusting that your tiny effort will be replicated by millions of others.


imho.



http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/

http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp?cat=engwal

Finally borsuk comes out of his shell and posts more than one sentence for a change.

Superb stuff.
 
Unread 13-01-2010, 04:03 PM
Albert Tatlock
 
Default

I wonder as a group how much we'll all still got in MUST ?
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