Football is more than a business

No no no, fans can't have a say in football clubs. 'It's a business you see'. Fans are all fat, unemployed alcoholics.

Originally Posted by rafabio

I don't see how people can even argue about german football clubs model.

Yeah, some of their clubs might be struggling financially, they may not be doing so well on the pitch. But at least their fans will be satisfied that they have done all they could to avoid it while in england a qatari, russian, a chicken @#%&! can do what they want without supporters having a say.

Only throb can argue against this

I won't be arguing against your post tbh. I read it though, so hopefully you can settle for that.

The low ticket prices etc hasn't happened by accident. The fans are organised and are prepared to make their feeling known by leaving the stands or threatening to boycott games.

Remember the proposed boycott in that meaningless match versus Blackburn at OT in 2005? People couldn't miss it because by chance they were bringing their terminally ill nephew for his first ever game and the whole thing became a slanging match. And that was just at Utd, imagine trying to organise something together with other clubs?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

all well and good, but the smaller german team's fans still hate the bigger german team's fans, there's still vast amounts of cash involved, and Sky have the rights to both the Bundesliga and to the CL

so for example while bayern lord it over the allianz with a team of megarich superstars and huge crowds the team they share the ground with are on the verge of bankruptcy

1860 had their own ground when I worked there. What happened to that?

Originally Posted by eusker

The low ticket prices etc hasn't happened by accident. The fans are organised and are prepared to make their feeling known by leaving the stands or threatening to boycott games.

Remember the proposed boycott in that meaningless match versus Blackburn at OT in 2005? People couldn't miss it because by chance they were bringing their terminally ill nephew for his first ever game and the whole thing became a slanging match. And that was just at Utd, imagine trying to organise something together with other clubs?

Yes, not going to a game must be a lot harder to organise than let's say, all going to a game, wearing the same coloured scarf and making more noise than you usually do.

Originally Posted by dodger

1860 had their own ground when I worked there. What happened to that?

Even then 1860 played most of their games in the Olympic stadium.

The Allianz was always a joint venture, but 1860 went bust and Bayern ended up paying more than their share. Think there was a corruption scandal involving 1860 as well.

Originally Posted by andyroo

Even then 1860 played most of their games in the Olympic stadium.

The Allianz was always a joint venture, but 1860 went bust and Bayern ended up paying more than their share. Think there was a corruption scandal involving 1860 as well.

I think I read about it on Ze Rawk

Originally Posted by irk

I think I read about it on Ze Rawk

love the 'Pool' do 1860, had a banner for the 96 up last year, me and the ol fella wear in fits of tears and our barry writ a poem about the germans never forgetting and stuff, it was boss la.

More on this Dortmund article here

http://www.afinelung.com/?p=5119

“This is our German football culture: to have standing, and cheap tickets, and the clubs controlled by their members,”

By 2005 the club had blown its stock market windfall and run up debts of €122m, principally, Watzke said, by wasting money on overpriced players from overseas...........Last week they announced a profit after tax of €34m; the debts are down from the €143m Watzke inherited, to €11m.

'Fans can't run football clubs'

I like what the Germans do with their football clubs but I suspect their mindset suits the relatively austere spending and the results that do (or don't) come with that.

Fans in the UK would be screaming for results regardless of the cost.

All 36 Bundesliga clubs are owned or controlled by their members, except the historic exceptions of Wolfsburg, owned by Volkswagen, Bayer Leverkeusen, owned by the pharmacy giant Bayer, and Hoffenheim, which is now funded by a single very wealthy entrepreneur, Dietmar Hopp.

Take that tyrannical english club owning oligarchs!!


Utd could over throw the glazers tomorrow by getting 50,000 reds rounded up and occupy. The anti glazer leadership is weak and full of fear.

Originally Posted by tatty

I like what the Germans do with their football clubs but I suspect their mindset suits the relatively austere spending and the results that do (or don't) come with that.

Fans in the UK would be screaming for results regardless of the cost.

Not having that. People like ownership. If they feel like they are involved, they are generally much happier.

Originally Posted by Zorg

More on this Dortmund article here

http://www.afinelung.com/?p=5119






'Fans can't run football clubs'

not sure anyone's ever said people who run football clubs can't be fans of that club and have its best interests at heart and not their own

the question has always been, for me at least, whether what the militant element think is in the best interests of the club actually is, or whether it's actually just their own moral crusade based on their own dogmatic approach thereby failing to take into account the actual best interests as seen by the majority of supporters. There's also the question of who should have a stake in deciding such things, given that many new fans have now been incumbent for getting on for a decade, whilst others have stayed away and have become increasingly obsolescent as a result.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

not sure anyone's ever said people who run football clubs can't be fans of that club and have its best interests at heart and not their own

the question has always been, for me at least, whether what the militant element think is in the best interests of the club actually is, or whether it's actually just their own moral crusade based on their own dogmatic approach thereby failing to take into account the actual best interests as seen by the majority of supporters. There's also the question of who should have a stake in deciding such things, given that many new fans have now been incumbent for getting on for a decade, whilst others have stayed away and have become increasingly obsolescent as a result.

You are talking about a stereotypical and myopic crowd though. James Surowiecki talks about how crowds are better at making decisions. He says, yes there are elements of error in the crowd, some over-doing things and some under-doing it. However, there is a lot of knowledge within a big group, and error ends up cancelling out error and what you are left with is knowledge. The more diverse the group, the better it will perform and United's support is very diverse.

Originally Posted by Argentina

You are talking about a stereotypical and myopic crowd though. James Surowiecki talks about how crowds are better at making decisions. He says, yes there are elements of error in the crowd, some over-doing things and some under-doing it. However, there is a lot of knowledge within a big group, and error ends up cancelling out error and what you are left with is knowledge. The more diverse the group, the better it will perform and United's support is very diverse.

So I SHOULD listen to what the forum says about what to buy my wife for xmas? A pair of waders, sex sling and 'Ted West' commerative bear it is.

Originally Posted by tatty

So I SHOULD listen to what the forum says about what to buy my wife for xmas? A pair of waders, sex sling and 'Ted West' commerative bear it is.

In this case, it is a small pool of 'knowledge' and the opinions given have little independence because they are given with the other forumistas in mind, rather than as an honest opinion.

the dfb are still trying to change things over there

your average german fan is still very unhappy with the way things are going with kick off times etc

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

not sure anyone's ever said people who run football clubs can't be fans of that club and have its best interests at heart and not their own.

the question has always been, for me at least, whether what the militant element think is in the best interests of the club actually is, or whether it's actually just their own moral crusade based on their own dogmatic approach thereby failing to take into account the actual best interests as seen by the majority of supporters. There's also the question of who should have a stake in deciding such things, given that many new fans have now been incumbent for getting on for a decade, whilst others have stayed away and have become increasingly obsolescent as a result.

Great. Who's argument was that?

People always tell me fans can't, or shouldn't, run football clubs. I hear it all the £#%&!ing time. For some reason, these people seem to think football supporters are all fat, pissed-up layabouts, completely ignoring the fact that any given club's fanbase contains business owners, lawyers, solicitors and so on. Not only that, they believe in some sort of infallibility of 'business' - men in suits who deal with lots of money can't possibly £#%&! things up and simply have to be trusted. They also seem blissfully unaware that there's an entire major European league where it's even written into the rules that clubs must be majority member-owned.

tatty's right imo, the Germans have a particular mindset that favours this sort of thing, but I don't think that means it would never work here. And it still counters the argument I get presented with on a regular basis. Not only is Dortmund fan-owned, but those fans actually run it better financially - they actually turned it around from making a huge loss, reducing its debts and icnreasing its turnover. So in their case, it's not just some sort of moral crusade, but it works better in financial terms as well. Yet still people tell me you have to leave everything in the hands of 'business people', whoever they are.

As for the rest of your comments, I agree. fan-owned clubs would/do need to work out what their interests are and what the best way of representing those interests is. No-one pretends it's an easy, smooth process.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Great. Who's argument was that?

People always tell me fans can't, or shouldn't, run football clubs. I hear it all the £#%&!ing time. For some reason, these people seem to think football supporters are all fat, pissed-up layabouts, completely ignoring the fact that any given club's fanbase contains business owners, lawyers, solicitors and so on. Not only that, they believe in some sort of infallibility of 'business' - men in suits who deal with lots of money can't possibly £#%&! things up and simply have to be trusted. They also seem blissfully unaware that there's an entire major European league where it's even written into the rules that clubs must be majority member-owned.

tatty's right imo, the Germans have a particular mindset that favours this sort of thing, but I don't think that means it would never work here. And it still counters the argument I get presented with on a regular basis. Not only is Dortmund fan-owned, but those fans actually run it better financially - they actually turned it around from making a huge loss, reducing its debts and icnreasing its turnover. So in their case, it's not just some sort of moral crusade, but it works better in financial terms as well. Yet still people tell me you have to leave everything in the hands of 'business people', whoever they are.

As for the rest of your comments, I agree. fan-owned clubs would/do need to work out what their interests are and what the best way of representing those interests is. No-one pretends it's an easy, smooth process.

and the alternative is not good either. @#%&!s like glazers, chicken heads, russians, americans, qataris are ruining the game.

the foreign owners are a direct product of Sky TV, meaning clearly that those who support Sky TV are the reason the foreign owners are here in the first place and the reason they keep coming. The FA are widely blamed by supporters looking for scapegoats, but mostly these people have welcomed the whole thing into their living rooms and paid good money to have it there.