Ferie Out!

Originally Posted by dodger

Is this NIMBYism gone wrong? You've surpassed yourself here. 10/10.

Please explain yourself. Why do you see it as odd that someone should want their home town to be prosperous and not treat people like mugs? I only live near Mcr Airport so it's not as if I'll never ever see it. I'm not an OOTer so to speak, I just don't live within the boundaries for the charge.

there are too many cars and too many selfish @#%&!s who block the roads, pollute the planet and expect their costs to be paid for by others.

you think the taxes on petrol, road tax etc. cover the costs of the road network and the pollution created? my arse it does. motorists are subsidised, not victimised.

and yes, i have a car. no, i don't take it to work every morning, though i could if i chose to. it would be a 20-minute journey by car and it's a 35-minute journey by bus and tram (45-minute on the way back because it's rush hour) but i don't begrudge the time. i think the majority of motorists are selfish bastards in terms of the cars they choose to buy, when they choose to use them, how they drive them and how they park. the idea of motorists as somehow victimised is so silly it hardly bears commenting on.

Originally Posted by Billy Baroo

the roads are at saturation point with traffic in most cities

if it cuts down traffic and gets people onto public transport to reduce pollution is that so bad?

and if you still want to drive it generates money for an ailing road and transport network

how many roads are there that have 1 lane when there used to be 2, traffic calming my arse

have you tried getting on a tram in rush hour?

which is why we pay road tax in the first place,

Originally Posted by borsuk

there are too many cars and too many selfish @#%&!s who block the roads, pollute the planet and expect their costs to be paid for by others.

you think the taxes on petrol, road tax etc. cover the costs of the road network and the pollution created? my arse it does. motorists are subsidised, not victimised.

and yes, i have a car. no, i don't take it to work every morning, though i could if i chose to. it would be a 20-minute journey by car and it's a 35-minute journey by bus and tram (45-minute on the way back because it's rush hour) but i don't begrudge the time. i think the majority of motorists are selfish bastards in terms of the cars they choose to buy, when they choose to use them, how they drive them and how they park. the idea of motorists as somehow victimised is so silly it hardly bears commenting on.

You're talking %@#$&!s. You usually provide links, can you find one that shows the net spend on roads and pollution and the net tax recd by the treasury from cars, petrol and fines.

The motorist subsidises this country and they treat us like shit.

Originally Posted by roterteufel

how many roads are there that have 1 lane when there used to be 2, traffic calming my arse

have you tried getting on a tram in rush hour?

which is why we pay road tax in the first place,

we have an archaic road system built within old cities that were simply not designed for the volume of traffic that now tries to use it

motorways and cities are £#%&!ing clogged up

are you saying its impossible to use a tram or that you're not prepared to wait?

the irony is that most of the people opposing it are the ones who sit in traffic jams calling all other road users @#%&!s

Originally Posted by Billy Baroo

we have an archaic road system built within old cities that were simply not designed for the volume of traffic that now tries to use it

motorways and cities are £#%&!ing clogged up

are you saying its impossible to use a tram or that you're not prepared to wait?

the irony is that most of the people opposing it are the ones who sit in traffic jams calling all other road users @#%&!s

If you're unlucky enough not work outside Piccadilly, you can forget getting on a tram in rush hour. Why not use the money they gnerate from ticket sales? They haven't given a £#%&! for years and now they want to blame the motorist.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

You're talking %@#$&!s. You usually provide links, can you find one that shows the net spend on roads and pollution and the net tax recd by the treasury from cars, petrol and fines.

The motorist subsidises this country and they treat us like shit.

nope, because pollution costs are externalised. the costs to the environment of over 700 million cars worldwide are never factored into anything - they simply do not exist as far as calculating costs goes. not to mention the health costs, stress, road rage, accidents, political aspects (addiction to oil, with all that that entails around the world) etc. perhaps worst of all, but little understood, is the effect on working, shopping and leisure habits - the dislocation of workplace and shopping place from community means depersonalisation and atomisation - the ongoing and appalling transformation of thinking members of communities into replaceable cogs in the workplace and robots of consumption.

so, no, i can't like to figures because, for obvious reasons, such figures are not available. creating such an analysis would require some awareness of and admission that society is a deeper network of relationships and causalities and not simply the actuarial reckoning of immediately apparent costs.

Originally Posted by borsuk

spot on fergie. should be linked to ability to pay and pollution though - a fraction of the market value of the car multiplied by a figure based on emissions would do it. that way the rich pay relatively more (plus a @#%&! tax in the form of a surcharge for spoilers, alloys and those @#%&!ty speakers that fill an entire boot), while if you have zero emissions you pay £#%&! all.

meanwhile, back in the real world there is £#%&! all chance that the money raised will genuinely be used to improve public transport. it will be used to cut the budget and redirect money 'saved' elsewhere. ho hum.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

A fraction? How about 17.5% of the price of the car when it's new? As for emissions, charge them an annual fee for using the car and charge that according to emissions. When we have this, will you be satisfied and let public transport pay for it's own upgrades?

By now you've probably realised we pay VAT on new cars and an annual car tax based on emissions before we even put the petrol in that's 80% tax. They've run out of ways to charge the motorist so they're inventing new ones.

Next they'll link it into the NHS and say that X millions are spent each year treating accident victims and charge us again. Then we'll pay because the day has a Y in it. It's a pissing joke.

Originally Posted by borsuk

there are too many cars and too many selfish @#%&!s who block the roads, pollute the planet and expect their costs to be paid for by others.

you think the taxes on petrol, road tax etc. cover the costs of the road network and the pollution created? my arse it does. motorists are subsidised, not victimised.

and yes, i have a car. no, i don't take it to work every morning, though i could if i chose to. it would be a 20-minute journey by car and it's a 35-minute journey by bus and tram (45-minute on the way back because it's rush hour) but i don't begrudge the time. i think the majority of motorists are selfish bastards in terms of the cars they choose to buy, when they choose to use them, how they drive them and how they park. the idea of motorists as somehow victimised is so silly it hardly bears commenting on.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

You're talking %@#$&!s. You usually provide links, can you find one that shows the net spend on roads and pollution and the net tax recd by the treasury from cars, petrol and fines.

The motorist subsidises this country and they treat us like shit.

Come on Borsy babes, it's not like you to post unsubstantiated facts.

Sorry but I get the impression those in favour are making standard assumptions without all the facts. It's not a simple question of motorists moaning, there are other issues here.

I am fervently in favour of improving the transport network and despite having a car am no lover of driving, but the way it's being presented is a disgrace.

- It doesn't make any difference to me as I work from home now, but I didn't always and for years I have given money to Metrolink but have they ever upgraded diddly £#%&!ing squat? Nope. £3.50 for a short journey and yet we have the same shit ticket machines and scrap bits of paper laughably called 'tickets' as we had in 1992. We've had ONE line added in that time, to Eccles. The trams are so full at rush hour you have to let two go before you can get on, and roughly once a week the system fails completely. 'We are sorry to announce...'.

It's the most expensive and poorly-run tram system I have ever come across. So where's that money gone, exactly? Same place as our council tax, presumably.

- A friend of mine will be paying £40 a month for literally a five minute journey to work. She has stuff to carry for work so cannot take the bus or walk. She used to insist on walking but changed her mind as a young woman carrying a laptop through Whalley Range in the dark isn't the best thing to do. Is it fair she has to pay £40 a month? I don't think so.

- What about the areas of Manchester that have been completely ignored? Burnage, Levenshulme, Longsight, Gorton to name a few will get next to nothing from this apart from fancy bus stops. Are they supposed to vote Yes?

- They haven't confirmed that train stations will get ticket machines. I have been hassled for not buying a ticket because of this, even threatened with prosecution despite having no machines, no ticket office and no monkey on the train.

- Cycle lanes: again, I have been unable to find out exactly what these will look like, but I strongly suspect a slap of green paint with a nice picture of a bike on it. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so, but they should be more clear about it if they want me to vote Yes.

So you see, it's a lot more complicated than 'motorists moaning again'.

If the congestion charge was in force all those years ago then the IRA would have probably bombed somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

Come on Borsy babes, it's not like you to post unsubstantiated facts.

Red rag Sniffer,

Originally Posted by gedthemull

Red rag Sniffer,

In fairness to him, he replied whilst I was typing. Borsuk doesn't mind me calling him Borsy Babes, it's my pet name for him. Here comes the ban.

went to work to earn some money to buy a car.......paid income tax and national insurance

went to buy a car and paid VAT

had to get Road Tax

then insurance...plus insurance tax (5%)

then i went and put some petrol in it....80% of which is Tax

drove home at 31mph and got a speeding (tax) fine

now im sat on the M60 ...and its cost me a congestion charge

yeah..im a selfish @#%&!......

£#%&! IT.....i'll pack my job in.....go on the dole and catch a tram to sign on

Originally Posted by denis lawless

went to work to earn some money to buy a car.......paid income tax and national insurance

went to buy a car and paid VAT

had to get Road Tax

then insurance...plus insurance tax (5%)

then i went and put some petrol in it....80% of which is Tax

drove home at 31mph and got a speeding (tax) fine

now im sat on the M60 ...and its cost me a congestion charge

yeah..im a selfish @#%&!......

£#%&! IT.....i'll go on the dole and catch a tram to sign on

Parking meters, £2 for 1 hour.
MOT, VAT on servicing.

No one's standing up for the little man, what about the Sabi Rock guy? He'll have to pay to get to Manchester just to stand there with his sign which will now be seen by fewer motorists. How will he ever afford a new hat or 2 cable ties for his sign?

Originally Posted by denis lawless

went to work to earn some money to buy a car.......paid income tax and national insuranceyou went to work solely to buy a car? work on your back, do you?

went to buy a car and paid VATas you do on almost everything else.

had to get Road Taxtoo £#%&!ing right

then insurance...plus insurance tax (5%)drive like a £#%&!ing maniac (see below) you'd better get insurance.

then i went and put some petrol in it....80% of which is Taxnot a hybrid or electric, then? not lpg? not diesel?

drove home at 31mph and got a speeding (tax) fineyeah, right i know you poles - 131 more like. drive like a £#%&!ing lunatic, you deserve everything you get

now im sat on the M60 ...and its cost me a congestion chargestop congesting you won't have to pay it

yeah..im a selfish @#%&!......

£#%&! IT.....i'll pack my job in.....go on the dole and catch a tram to sign on who said anything about the dole?

.

so would one of you like to explain exactly why everything costs so much?

why does it cost so much to build a new road for instance?

why does it cost so much to kill the natural habitat of the designated area concerned?

who pays for the knock-on effects to said communities?

why are people so quick to hate taxes but so happy to be lemming consumers of exhorbitantly priced goods in the rest of their lifestyle choices?

how can you possibly resent road tax but voluntarily pay for satellite television?

it really is a £#%&!ed up world

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

so would one of you like to explain exactly why everything costs so much?

why does it cost so much to build a new road for instance?

why does it cost so much to kill the natural habitat of the designated area concerned?

who pays for the knock-on effects to said communities?

why are people so quick to hate taxes but so happy to be lemming consumers of exhorbitantly priced goods in the rest of their lifestyle choices?

how can you possibly resent road tax but voluntarily pay for satellite television?

it really is a £#%&!ed up world

Because they get things they want with money they have earned. It's their choice what they spend their money on. No one tells them what to buy. If they choose to, they can take their custom to a different shop and buy different makes and ensure that they get value for money. With tax, they charge what they want, give you shite service at a time convenient to them and they put you in prison if you don't keep giving them your money.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

Because they get things they want with money they have earned. It's their choice what they spend their money on. No one tells them what to buy. If they choose to, they can take their custom to a different shop and buy different makes and ensure that they get value for money. With tax, they charge what they want, give you shite service at a time convenient to them and they put you in prison if you don't keep giving them your money.

nope, completely false argument

value for money is carefully selected items from the likes of Matalan and the pound shop

designer gear is often charged at 3 or 400% mark up or more

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

nope, completely false argument

value for money is carefully selected items from the likes of Matalan and the pound shop

designer gear is often charged at 3 or 400% mark up or more

What if an expensive suit gets you past the interview for a decent job? It's completely subjective. You assume vfm = cheap. Depending what you want the item for you will have different requirements.