ETH surveillance 22/23

Originally Posted by tatty

If you're interested in the evolution of tactics in football then 'Inverting the Pyramid' is well worth a read.

One thing that came out of the book for me is how important it is to have players clever enough to understand complex modern tactics. I'm not saying our players are thick as shit but there is clearly something amiss because ETH was recognised as one of the brightest young coaches in Europe.

He’s not really that young though.

It’s becoming clearer that maybe he just wasn’t ever that elite. A freak run in the CL maybe elevated his reputation higher than it should have been. If he had been appointed to replace Mourinho, people would have lost their minds we’d appointed a coach who’d been languishing in the Dutch league in his 40s.

Hope I’m wrong, as I can’t be arsed with another manager now. I have £#%&! idea about modern tactics, I’m a child of the Mike Bassett era, but what I’m seeing here is absolute garbage and we’re way off too teams despite millions spent again.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

He's on borrowed time now.

The players all look utterly miserable, unmotivated and are clearly not enjoying what they're being asked to do. It's as clear as day.

That first half, considering what was at stake and the emotion of the week, was about as clear a 'going through the motions' as you're going to get.

We've battled and struggled to 3 awful wins against poor sides. There's going to be some very, very grim results for us going towards Nov/Dec and i'll be shocked if Arnold doesn't buckle and sack him.

Unless the players completely down tools, there’s virtually zero chance of him being sacked IMO. Moyes aside, everyone has had two years. He’ll get the same.

It’s far too early in the season and we’ve plenty to go in all comps to even consider his position. The range and frequencies of injuries is killing any chance of getting a settled team and there’s far too many of our better players scratching around for form.

Bruno, Casemiro and Rashford are in shite form and we’re badly missing Shaw and Martinez. Add to that we’ve got a new keeper chucking them in and that’s on top of all the issues we already had.

Having said that, he’s not making things easy for himself. I believe in what he’s trying to do, but there comes a point where the responsibility falls on him if the players are unable or unwilling to do what he wants them to do. He needs to stop trying to shoehorn Bruno into positions he’s not comfortable. Stop picking The Scottish Player. Stop taking Hojlund off. Drop rashford or at least take him off earlier.

Part of his job is having the plan, but it doesn’t mean anything if he can’t them to do it. Right now, they’re just not getting it. For whatever reason.

As you say, they don’t look happy. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort, but everthing will look slower and less intense where there’s doubt, pressure and the lack of confidence we’re seeing now.

I thought we adapted well last night. He didn’t just let the game drift. He changed it at half time and it worked (just!)
I keep hoping one of these wins and moments will kickstart something. We need a settled defence and massive performance at the weekend. We’re up against it, but we’ve beaten them before and we can do it again.

A worry for me is he's sending us out to counter-attack against "shit" sides. When we commit to playing at a higher tempo and retaining possession, we're ok but we don't ever start that way. It's only when everything else has gone wrong we start playing as if we're the "good" side.

We’re a team very low on confidence, which is understandable considering the start to the season we had and the number of injuries hasn’t helped in that regard either.

We could and probably should have been 3 or 4 up going into the latter stages of the game but when Rashford, Garnachox2 and Mctom miss one v ones or open goals there’s not much a manager can do about that.

Bruno was decent last night I thought, but is well below his best and rashford has reverted to type after his new bumper contract. Both of them need to be dropped but I’m getting the feeling ETH is trying to keep the two of them onside as they’re obviously both very influential players in the dressing room.

Originally Posted by armchair

A worry for me is he's sending us out to counter-attack against "shit" sides. When we commit to playing at a higher tempo and retaining possession, we're ok but we don't ever start that way. It's only when everything else has gone wrong we start playing as if we're the "good" side.

I agree. I'm not seeing his vision yet, I thought we were getting a highly rated coach who instilled work ethic, the high press and a proper style of football.

He needs time but we also need to see some improvements.

Originally Posted by silv

I agree. I'm not seeing his vision yet, I thought we were getting a highly rated coach who instilled work ethic, the high press and a proper style of football.

He needs time but we also need to see some improvements.

Thought I was going mad. So many on here telling me they can see it. I see nothing.

I also don't get this excuse that he doesn't have the players to execute his vision. First, half the players last night were his singings and second, if the players really aren't capable (and I'm not sure why anyone would believe elite footballers would be uncapable) then implement a new vision that they can execute.

Originally Posted by silv

I agree. I'm not seeing his vision yet, I thought we were getting a highly rated coach who instilled work ethic, the high press and a proper style of football.

He needs time but we also need to see some improvements.

It just isn’t there. It’s pretty deflating seeing us this toothless and lacking in structure this far in. The football is rotten and you can’t write off even the most straight forward fixtures as fairly routine wins. If we had Luton at Old Trafford next I wouldn’t be supremely confident.

The signs have been there since around March and I reject the notion that we should have to sign our way out of it. How about making the team a bit more than the sum of its parts for a run of games….

Originally Posted by Stickman

It just isn’t there. It’s pretty deflating seeing us this toothless and lacking in structure this far in. The football is rotten and you can’t write off even the most straight forward fixtures as fairly routine wins. If we had Luton at Old Trafford next I wouldn’t be supremely confident.

The signs have been there since around March and I reject the notion that we should have to sign our way out of it. How about making the team a bit more than the sum of its parts for a run of games….

Exactly. The last time we played well at a high level were the two Barca games. That's a long time ago now. No matter what level of shite team we've played against this season we've managed to make them look considerably better than us for long periods of the game. I don't think I've ever seen a team at this level pass the ball and retain possession as badly as this United team. To make matters worse whatever 'style' of football they are actually playing is just mind numbingly boring.

Originally Posted by shenwen

Thought I was going mad. So many on here telling me they can see it. I see nothing.

I also don't get this excuse that he doesn't have the players to execute his vision. First, half the players last night were his singings and second, if the players really aren't capable (and I'm not sure why anyone would believe elite footballers would be uncapable) then implement a new vision that they can execute.

I think that's what he's trying to do and that's where it's going tits up.

He should implement what he knows and play the players that can carry out that system - no matter which 'big' names get left by the wayside.

He's trying to please everyone and in the end pleasing no one.

We’re seeing the same thing on the pitch we’ve seen under the past 4 managers, initial acceptance of the new managers wants and instructions, some success on the pitch, a bit of adversity in games leading to collapse followed by a complete exodus of confidence and players playing like they’ve no idea what they’re doing. It’s a familiar pattern, it’s come round quicker this time, it’s normally a late 2nd early 3rd season thing. At some point we’re going to have to let a manager get through it tbh, because the players will ensure the pattern repeats if we don’t, as they have and are.

A freak run in the champions league for our 40+ year old manager....

Forget the trophies a plenty at Ajax and one in his first year here....

How are Ajax doing now he's left by the way ? Absolute Cloggers league, must be still up there with their budget and 'eritage...

Oh.

Anyone know how we got on against West Ham last night, I missed the game

Originally Posted by dunk

We’re seeing the same thing on the pitch we’ve seen under the past 4 managers, initial acceptance of the new managers wants and instructions, some success on the pitch, a bit of adversity in games leading to collapse followed by a complete exodus of confidence and players playing like they’ve no idea what they’re doing. It’s a familiar pattern, it’s come round quicker this time, it’s normally a late 2nd early 3rd season thing. At some point we’re going to have to let a manager get through it tbh, because the players will ensure the pattern repeats if we don’t, as they have and are.

Yep. Whatever it takes.

Originally Posted by dunk

We’re seeing the same thing on the pitch we’ve seen under the past 4 managers, initial acceptance of the new managers wants and instructions, some success on the pitch, a bit of adversity in games leading to collapse followed by a complete exodus of confidence and players playing like they’ve no idea what they’re doing. It’s a familiar pattern, it’s come round quicker this time, it’s normally a late 2nd early 3rd season thing. At some point we’re going to have to let a manager get through it tbh, because the players will ensure the pattern repeats if we don’t, as they have and are.

Fantastic point. I worry about our weak leadership though. They've already shown themselves to be lacking in any real conviction about their decisions.

I've often spoken about Arteta at Arsenal and the time he was given. He came into a club that had been in the wilderness for ages and like United a dressing room culture of mediocrity and acceptance of low standards had taken hold. They had to put up with two seasons of pretty wretched results under him finishing 8th and then 5th but eventually he was able to steer it around.

Now i'm saying for one minute that Ten Hag is going to do the same - Arteta at least seems to have competent people working above him to help him out. But we at least need to give him 3-4 years to try and do it otherwise what's the point.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Fantastic point. I worry about our weak leadership though. They've already shown themselves to be lacking in any real conviction about their decisions.

I've often spoken about Arteta at Arsenal and the time he was given. He came into a club that had been in the wilderness for ages and like United a dressing room culture of mediocrity and acceptance of low standards had taken hold. They had to put up with two seasons of pretty wretched results under him finishing 8th and then 5th but eventually he was able to steer it around.

Now i'm saying for one minute that Ten Hag is going to do the same - Arteta at least seems to have competent people working above him to help him out. But we at least need to give him 3-4 years to try and do it otherwise what's the point.

Remember the furore over them selling Ozil? Stats £#%&!ers everywhere talking about his assists and how good he was. He was a lazy @#%&! who thought he was bigger than the club.

Originally Posted by NedKelly

Remember the furore over them selling Ozil? Stats £#%&!ers everywhere talking about his assists and how good he was. He was a lazy @#%&! who thought he was bigger than the club.

Same with Aubamayang.

Good to see some sensible realism creeping into the thread.

how can you claim it’s been the same under 4 manager when the players have almost completely changed.

it is possible the football men have picked the wrong manager 4 times or even if ETH is the right man for the job they made the mistake of giving him too much control.

a competent DOF would never have left us spend 85m on Antony, would never have looked at our squad going into the season with our forwards as bought mount for 60m

Originally Posted by marlo

how can you claim it’s been the same under 4 manager when the players have almost completely changed.

it is possible the football men have picked the wrong manager 4 times or even if ETH is the right man for the job they made the mistake of giving him too much control.

a competent DOF would never have left us spend 85m on Antony, would never have looked at our squad going into the season with our forwards as bought mount for 60m

Correct I agree that a competent director of football would have allowed us to spend our money more wisely. But we don't have one because our owners would rather have marketing men and bankers making football decisions. That isn't going to change if we sack Ten Hag is it.

Look at the other clubs in the top 6. City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle. How many of them are shoe horning in loan signings at the last minute to cover holes in the squad? Cos we seem to be doing that every £#%&!ing season now since Ole was in charge. How many of them are operating in this demented structure that we have where nobody above the manager knows how to identify and bring talent to the club?

You may get a slight upturn in form if we sack Ten Hag but i guarantee you with the idiots in the boardroom we'll be right back here within 2 years as always.

I heard a quote a while ago along the lines of The Galzers would never hire a football person such as Ole to run the commercial department but are quite happy to hire accountants to run the football side of things.

As long as this continues we are £#%&!ed - any changes in manager are akin to rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic