Fletcher Crisis Talks

Originally Posted by The Watcher

I hope he £#%&!s off. He’s £#%&!ing shit. Can't pass, can't tackle and can’t shoot - absolute crap. I've never seen a United play loose possession as much he has over the last four years, £#%&!ing joke he's still here. A couple of sub par performances (as opposed to absolute shite) last season and all of a sudden some of you clowns want him to stay? £#%&! off!

Get rid of the @#%&! and give Gibson a chance!

bang on! nft.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Not too much, mainly on Spanish football on sky "ayeee". Saw maybe 2 games live and was very impressed as were most observers in Spain. Also saw him in some u21? international tourny recently, think he got player of the tournament. I'd not seen O'Shea ayt all before he got his first team chance and i'd only seen Fletcher in our reserves.

I still think it's too much of a risk to ditch O'Shea and Fletcher for Pique and Gibson.
For all their averageness, they still have a bit of experience that may be needed should injuries kick in like the end of last season.
A big squad can suddenly appear very thin once some injuries kick in and I'd hate for us to be lamenting selling Fletch and O'Shea as Gibson and Pique struggle, for instance.

It's a very difficult balancing act. These are the hazards of a strong squad. It's not just as easy as selling one player because we have another. Each player brings something a little different.

I think there's enough games in the season to keep the fringe players happy while encouraging the youngsters and giving them the odd look in.
As long as they are getting some sort of look in that gives them confidence to believe they can break in, then they should be ok.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

I still think it's too much of a risk to ditch O'Shea and Fletcher for Pique and Gibson.
For all their averageness, they still have a bit of experience that may be needed should injuries kick in like the end of last season.
A big squad can suddenly appear very thin once some injuries kick in and I'd hate for us to be lamenting selling Fletch and O'Shea as Gibson and Pique struggle, for instance.

It's a very difficult balancing act. These are the hazards of a strong squad. It's not just as easy as selling one player because we have another. Each player brings something a little different.

I think there's enough games in the season to keep the fringe players happy while encouraging the youngsters and giving them the odd look in.
As long as they are getting some sort of look in that gives them confidence to believe they can break in, then they should be ok.

Then we get rid of the youngsters that aren't ever going to get a look in and get the experience. It's one or the other, no point having both

Originally Posted by dodger

Then we get rid of the youngsters that aren't ever going to get a look in and get the experience. It's one or the other, no point having both

Exactly. If they are always gonna be too much of a risk and always have these "good squad players" ahead of them, they'll never get any experience and never make it so we might as well get rid now and accept 10 years of Fletch and O'Shea's arses on the bench.

Ferguson cleary see's O'shea as the main man for filling in now, fletcher hasnt a hope in hell of getting into the team, we already have too many midfielders and are struggling to accommodate scholes, hargreaves and carrick as it is.

When the fuuk has O'Shea ever done anything like Fletcher's performances against Roma, Arsenal in the cup final etc?

We have no cover Hargreaves, Fletcher is the closest thing with his energy levels yet we just see O'Shea plodding around in midfield.

I don't rate Gibson personally. Too much of a plodder (if thats the right word) for me. He can pass and he can shoot, but thats about it. Doesn't seem to have no authority about the way he plays and doesn't get stuck in enough for my liking.

He's very laid back.

For all jos faults (and he has many) the one thing he can do is plug 3 or 4 gaps in an emergency leaving extra places on the bench.

It doesn't happen like that though. O'Shea is always named alongisde 2 other fuuking players who can do a better job than him in those positions.

Return of JC

I still think it's too much of a risk to ditch O'Shea and Fletcher for Pique and Gibson.
For all their averageness, they still have a bit of experience that may be needed should injuries kick in like the end of last season.
A big squad can suddenly appear very thin once some injuries kick in and I'd hate for us to be lamenting selling Fletch and O'Shea as Gibson and Pique struggle, for instance.

Difficult not to lose patience with this constant ''experience'' argument. Fletcher I think should stay, because he brings a certain amount of dynamism we lack in midfield other than Hargreaves (see Roma last season).

But for O'Shea - and Brown for this matter. Look at the positions they play, and why we struggle when they play there.

When they play at full back - our attacking is shite, attacks down the right are killed off, they lack technique, their first touch is shit, they struggle to control a ball without it bobbling up in front of them, and their passing is shit.

When O'Shea plays in midfield, as part of a two, its even more of a problem because he doesn't have fantastic pace, he doesn't have good technical ability - look at the difference last season, with Carrick and Scholes playing together, they could just ping passes between each other over and over again, they could have complete trust in each other's ability, do they have that with someone like O'Shea as their partner? No.

Then look at our alternatives. For right back, there's Simpson. Better there than Brown & O'Shea? Yes. There's also Pique, who played there against West Ham the season before last, but I didn't see the game.

Centreback; Evans & Pique, both calm, don't panick in possession, and Evans in particular organises the back line very well, clicks them all into place, he came in for the Amsterdam final last pre-season and was even doing it then. Our defence normally falls apart when Rio is not there, but I wouldn't be panicking if it was Evans coming into the team.

Left back; This is where O'Shea should settle, and never venture out of if he stays. But still we have Evans who apparently impressed there when playing for N.Ireland - anyone who saw those games can say?

Midfield; Fletcher is more mobile, Gibson is a better passer, as is Pique.

So in every position they play, we have better options.

You talk about experience - does their experience make up for their shortcomings in ability? Imo no, it showed at the back end of last season, and its showing this season.

I said to go with the youngsters at the start of the season. People said they lack the experience. Well if we had played them from the start, I doubt we would have done any worse than we have now, and at least they would have gained some of this critical experience.

Fletcher is shit. gets knocked off the ball too easily, doesn't tackle and when he does he always loses. he's passing isn't even great. O'Shea had more good performances in his first season than Fletcher will have in his whole career at OT. O'Shea scores more goals and can even play in nets, ffs! i'd love to see fletcher in nets....................not!

he's a £#%&!in @#%&!. doesn't do anything positive. he's just a very average player.

nft.

Man of the match in one of the club's best european performances ever.

nft.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

Man of the match in one of the club's best european performances ever.

nft.

Who says he was man of the match? He did a good job but he was nowhere near man of the match.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

Man of the match in one of the club's best european performances ever.

nft.

i'm basing it on his mostly shit performances. nft.

Originally Posted by El Calafate

i'm basing it on his mostly shit performances. nft.

not many shit performances last season, big improvement, can see him moving on though.

Originally Posted by rebelcountyred

not many shit performances last season, big improvement, can see him moving on though.

Actually there were plenty, though not in the last 2 months where he performed a limited role quite well. Still he has no chance of being a first teamer so does it not make sense to let the next generation have their chance at making it?

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Actually there were plenty, though not in the last 2 months where he performed a limited role quite well. Still he has no chance of being a first teamer so does it not make sense to let the next generation have their chance at making it?

I'm actually in agreement with you about fletcher leaving, think he would be better off, his poorest performances were when he was played out wide, not a winger by any stretch of the imagination yet fergie persisted in playing him there, best performances were in the centre. His performance against roma was outstanding and for me he was MoM that night, most will disagree but opinions are like arseholes.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

Difficult not to lose patience with this constant ''experience'' argument. Fletcher I think should stay, because he brings a certain amount of dynamism we lack in midfield other than Hargreaves (see Roma last season).

But for O'Shea - and Brown for this matter. Look at the positions they play, and why we struggle when they play there.

When they play at full back - our attacking is shite, attacks down the right are killed off, they lack technique, their first touch is shit, they struggle to control a ball without it bobbling up in front of them, and their passing is shit.

When O'Shea plays in midfield, as part of a two, its even more of a problem because he doesn't have fantastic pace, he doesn't have good technical ability - look at the difference last season, with Carrick and Scholes playing together, they could just ping passes between each other over and over again, they could have complete trust in each other's ability, do they have that with someone like O'Shea as their partner? No.

Then look at our alternatives. For right back, there's Simpson. Better there than Brown & O'Shea? Yes. There's also Pique, who played there against West Ham the season before last, but I didn't see the game.

Centreback; Evans & Pique, both calm, don't panick in possession, and Evans in particular organises the back line very well, clicks them all into place, he came in for the Amsterdam final last pre-season and was even doing it then. Our defence normally falls apart when Rio is not there, but I wouldn't be panicking if it was Evans coming into the team.

Left back; This is where O'Shea should settle, and never venture out of if he stays. But still we have Evans who apparently impressed there when playing for N.Ireland - anyone who saw those games can say?

Midfield; Fletcher is more mobile, Gibson is a better passer, as is Pique.

So in every position they play, we have better options.

You talk about experience - does their experience make up for their shortcomings in ability? Imo no, it showed at the back end of last season, and its showing this season.

I said to go with the youngsters at the start of the season. People said they lack the experience. Well if we had played them from the start, I doubt we would have done any worse than we have now, and at least they would have gained some of this critical experience.

Pretty much everything you say there is valid. The only thing is that we are yet to find out if Pique and Gibson can cut it. It's all very well suggesting they are better, but are they? This is based on games outside of the first team. In the first team, they may struggle. If they do and we've sold Fletcher and O'Shea (who although lacking, we know can do a job for us) then we're in the shit.
My point is that I don't see the need to make these sorts of changes just yet. There's enough games in a season to give youngsters a chance and fringe players appearances.
Once the youngsters have a taste then we can start to gauge how good they are and start t#@&%! the squad from there.
I still think there's enough games to do all of this. It's when Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea and co are unquestionably picked ahead of the kids regardless of form, fitness and positioning that it becomes a problem.

They need to feel like they are being given a fair chance and they have to be developed, otherwise there's just no point having them, but I think we can do this without ditching players who we know can be called upon without being spectacular.

I'm not advocating selling players immediately but I do think that both Pique and Gibson should be given opportunities ahead of Fletcher and O' Shea during this season. Given the limited games there are gonna be for them anyway I think that this will cause both TSP and Pie to want to leave in the summer anyway. Honestly if Fletcher's ambition is just to be Hargreaves backup at 23 then I realy don't think he's got what it takes at United. If not then he'll be gone in a year anyway to get first team football. In the end we have to keep giving opportunities to our younger players and shipping out mid-20s squad players or give up entirely on youth development. AsI said, does anyone really still want Fletcher on our bench in 10 years time?

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

Pretty much everything you say there is valid. The only thing is that we are yet to find out if Pique and Gibson can cut it.

And exactly how will find that out, dear?

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

I'm not advocating selling players immediately but I do think that both Pique and Gibson should be given opportunities ahead of Fletcher and O' Shea during this season. Given the limited games there are gonna be for them anyway I think that this will cause both TSP and Pie to want to leave in the summer anyway. Honestly if Fletcher's ambition is just to be Hargreaves backup at 23 then I realy don't think he's got what it takes at United. If not then he'll be gone in a year anyway to get first team football. In the end we have to keep giving opportunities to our younger players and shipping out mid-20s squad players or give up entirely on youth development. AsI said, does anyone really still want Fletcher on our bench in 10 years time?

I agree, which is why I think we'll find out a lot about the youngsters and the fringe players. If the youngesters are good enough to make an impression then the natural progression would be for the older fringe players to leave.

I think everything will be much clearer next summer when we look to trim and fine tune the squad.

For now, kids in the Carling Cup and sub appearances where appropriate. Back up stays as back up, but if they're not playing well or less suitable to the job in question, then the kids are in.

There's a lot of games this year and I'm sure injuries, suspensions and tiredness will create plenty of chances.

EDIT: We have a case in point now. Brown is not playing particularly well at RB. His defending is ok, but if he continues to offer nothing going forward then it's only fair that Simpson is given a chance. They need to realise that they have a look in and by the same token Brown and the like need to realise they're not an automatic first choice second choice!
What would be bad would be to see O'Shea playing out of position should Brown be dropped.

Originally Posted by sharath

And exactly how will find that out, dear?

In 2018, when Fletcher retires from Uniteds bench.

Who says he was man of the match? He did a good job but he was nowhere near man of the match.

I am.

He was everywhere, his covering allowed for Ronaldo's freedom, he pressed them endlessly, was a real authority in midfield (bar the first cross field into touch pass), and supported the attack with his forward runs superbly, was refreshing to see us having a midfield player breaking into the box in Europe again.

Did more than a ''good job''

Originally Posted by sharath

And exactly how will find that out, dear?

Read my posts, you condescending poo!