Copa Libertadores Final

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

Is there a rule regarding how quickly a penalty should be taken after the referee blows his whistle? The reason that Cevallos complained was because Neves seemed to take an inordinately long amount of time to take the shot after the whistle was blown. Not sure what the situation is there.

In any case, the attitude from the media and from the vast majority of people is that it was clever play by Cevallos. Even Neves himself simply remarked that Cevallos is an experienced keeper who knows how to take advantage of the nerves of his opponents.

How can he complain about that after kneeling with his back to play and praying while Neves and the ref wait for him so they can get on with the kick?

I didn't notice Neves taking particularly long, but regardless, surely that's the ref's call. The goalkeeper can't be allowed to make that decision, surely?

just watched highlights on youtube. can't believe the keeper was allowed to behave like that. the standard of the pens was piss poor though.

also who is the bloke sitting on his own in a dugout they keep cutting to? one of the managers? i've never seen a manager rolling up and wearing jeans before?

Originally Posted by fix up look SHARPE

just watched highlights on youtube. can't believe the keeper was allowed to behave like that. the standard of the pens was piss poor though.

also who is the bloke sitting on his own in a dugout they keep cutting to? one of the managers? i've never seen a manager rolling up and wearing jeans before?

Yeah, that was Edgardo Buaza, the Argentine coach of Quito. He was in tears at the end. First ever Copa Libertadores won by a club from Ecuador. Some achievement.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Nope, didn't see that, but he's clearly a wind-up merchant. The commentator actually said that he was owned by Boca at one point. Do you remember ever seeing him there?

Nope. Don't think he ever played a match for the first team, or even made it to the bench. Bit of a £#%&!-up there.

It might be in River's interest to get Dario Conca back. Looks a tidy player.

Yep. Now that he's bottled a penalty in a Libertadores final he's surely ready to return to Núñez

Was also quite impressed with Thiago Silva at the back for Flu. I read an article by Tim Vickery on him a few months back and he looked a decent defender.

Silva is a very interesting prospect. Has been watched by a number of the big European clubs already, notably Milan. Definitely a very classy defender, always impressed with his ability to play the ball out from the back. From what I've seen, perhaps the best young centre-back in the Brazilian league at the moment.

The Brazilians seem to have a number of good central defenders coming through, no? Aside from Thiago Silva, there's David Luiz at Benfica, who I think looks extremely promising, Breno at Bayern, Alex Silva at Sao Paulo, and of course Henrique, who's just moved to Barca.

Silva seems to have a lot in his locker. Like you say, he's a very classy defender who's good with the ball at his feet, but he's also strong, very aggressive and lightening quick.

Seen very little of Breno (although I know the reputation) or Henrique. Seen a bit of Alex Silva, but David Luiz is is an excellent prospect. If he can iron out a little bit of the complacency, which comes with knowing he's so good, he'll be a great defender. Wouldn't surprise me if he's the subject of very strong interest from the big clubs this time next year.

Out of interest, I think this is the Vickery article on Thiago Silva:

"Thiago Silva is a monster," says Fluminense coach Renato Gaúcho. "I've got the best centre-back in Brazil in my team." The pair go way back. In 1995 Renato Gaúcho used his stomach to score the famous goal that won Fluminense the Rio de Janeiro State Championship. It was a decisive moment in the decision of a 10 year-old Thiago Silva, growing up in the city suburbs, to support the club.

Thirteen years later Thiago Silva is a Fluminense idol, but he has taken the scenic route on the way. He did train with Fluminense's youth sides, but was discarded. After playing well in youth tournaments he was offered a professional contract by tiny Rio Grande do Sul state club RS Futebol, in the south of Brazil, and was quickly picked up by nearby Juventude, with whom he had an excellent debut season in the First Division in 2004.

By this time Thiago Silva, formerly a right winger who also had spells in midfield and at full-back, had been converted into a specialist centre-back. And he was good enough to attract the attention of European clubs. But spells with Porto and Dynamo Moscow were blighted by injuries and illness, and he returned to Brazil to rebuild his career with his first love. Now, after two highly successful years at Fluminense, the club's Libertadores Cup campaign offers him the biggest challenge so far.

Renato Gaúcho's description is not entirely accurate. Thiago Silva is an unlikely monster, but his quality is unmistakable. He is in the "quietly elegant" school of centre-backs. With his size and strength there is no need for him to fear physical battles. But this is not where he excels. In fact, he is happiest avoiding clashes by using his other virtues - superb reading of the game, excellent covering, wonderful timing in the tackle and enough speed to be comfortable if drawn out wide.

All these attributes were on show last season and helped Fluminense finish fourth in the national championship, having conceded just 39 goals in 38 games, the second lowest tally, in addition to winning the Brazilian Cup.

The latter success booked them a ticket to their first Libertadores Cup campaign since 1985. Anxious to improve their shocking record in the competition, Fluminense have signed three former national team strikers - Washington, Leandro Amaral and Dodô - with the intention, initially at least, of fielding them all. With the team inevitably more open as a result, Thiago Silva's defensive abilities will be more necessary than ever. However he seems most comfortable playing very deep, using his anticipation to step up and win possession. Retaining that positioning with three strikers could well cause problems; it is likely to leave the pitch very big, with plenty of space for the opposing midfield to organise their moves.

So can Thiago Silva play higher up the field? Can he be a more imposing figure? The importance of these questions goes beyond the fate of Fluminense in the Libertadores Cup. European scouts are watching him closely. They sometimes complain that Brazilian centre-backs like to stay in the comfort zone almost on top of their keeper. It could well be that, if he is to return to Europe in triumph, Thiago Silva will have to show he can be physically commanding as well as classy.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

If he can iron out a little bit of the complacency, which comes with knowing he's so good, he'll be a great defender. Wouldn't surprise me if he's the subject of very strong interest from the big clubs this time next year.

Has some temper problems too, no? Definitely has the potential to go far though, as you say. The comparison that always jumps out at me is Ricardo Carvalho, although I think Luiz is maybe a bit tougher and more of a leader.

South America has so much young talent there.

A shame the clubs never get the true value for them.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Out of interest, I think this is the Vickery article on Thiago Silva:

Good stuff. Vickery is always worth a read.

Good comparison, actually. He does have strong leadership qualities though, you're right. I really expect him to kick on next season. Luisao's been a bit of a mess over the last year, so it could be that Luiz establishes himself as the lynchpin of their defence next season.

Originally Posted by MUFC One Love

South America has so much young talent there.

A shame the clubs never get the true value for them.

That's true. Although I think the age at which the players leave is a much bigger problem. When you constantly see players going to Europe after they've only played a few matches, or even before they've made their first team debuts, it's really sickening. Now you even see young kids moving, at 12 or 13, where the European club will employ their parents so that they can skirt around the regulations prohibiting international transfers for players of that age. Ridiculous.

It all means that the players don't get a chance to really develop as footballers and as individuals before they make such a big move, that the clubs don't get to enjoy the benefits of all the work they've put in in scouting and developing these kids, and that the fans barely get the opportunity to watch these players in the flesh, let alone as mature footballers.

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

That's true. Although I think the age at which the players leave is a much bigger problem. When you constantly see players going to Europe after they've only played a few matches, or even before they've made their first team debuts, it's really sickening. Now you even see young kids moving, at 12 or 13, where the European club will employ their parents so that they can skirt around the regulations prohibiting international transfers for players of that age. Ridiculous.

It all means that the players don't get a chance to really develop as footballers and as individuals before they make such a big move, that the clubs don't get to enjoy the benefits of all the work they've put in in scouting and developing these kids, and that the fans barely get the opportunity to watch these players in the flesh, let alone as mature footballers.

Indeed. When you consider that Brazil's side for the 2014 World Cup could contain Fabio, Luiz, Breno, Lucas, Anderson, Pato etc, I do wonder if the players involved will have much more than a couple of hundred appearances in Brazilian football between them.

Apparently Anderson has already come back home sounding Portuguese. It can only detach the fans even more from their national sides.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Apparently Anderson has already come back home sounding Portuguese. It can only detach the fans even more from their national sides.

Yeah. I saw that. That's one thing I like about Messi. He's been with Barcelona since he was 13, and yet if you hear him speak you'd never guess that he's even stepped foot outside Argentina. Incredible really.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I think usually the way it goes is the European club comes into the match with this kind of attitude, completely underestimating the opponent, and often losing.

South America is 25-22 up in finals at the moment. It's five each from the last ten.

Quito just went 1-0 up inside five minutes to silence the 92,000-strong Maracana crowd. Could be game over.

I wondered which South American nut hugger would bite.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Thiago Neves has made himself a club legend if Flu go on to win this.

He was £#%&!ing brilliant - although the goalkeeper perhaps should have done better with the free kick. Seemed to pass right through his hands.

Fantastic game too, brilliant entertainment. Watched the re-run at a far more civilized time, without knowing the result. Great way to spend the day off

The pyrotechnics on show in the stands before the teams came out really were amazing. Using flares to spell the name "Fluminense" in the stand behind the goal looked cool as £#%&!

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Apparently Anderson has already come back home sounding Portuguese. It can only detach the fans even more from their national sides.

Interesting.

Any chance you or Serenity Now could explain this a bit further? I take it it's with the accent?

Originally Posted by MUFC One Love

Any chance you or Serenity Now could explain this a bit further? I take it it's with the accent?

Iberian Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are different dialects. It's basically equivalent to the difference between the English spoken in England and in the US, although the distinctions are more pronounced.

In Brazil they elongate their unstressed vowels significantly in comparison to the Portuguese, who tend to swallow theirs. This makes Brazilian Portuguese sound lighter and also a lot easier to understand. They also have a different pronunciation for S before voiceless consonants and for Z and S at the end of words; in Brazil it's pronounced as an 's', whereas in Portugal it's pronounced as a 'sh' (although there is regional variation in Brazil, so the pronunciation of the Cariocas leans more towards the Iberian, while the proximity of the Rio Grande do Sul to Argentina means that they further in the other direction, for example).

There are also other distinctions in pronunciation, but I think you get the picture. Then there are variations in vocabulary (think US versus the Queen's English, but greater in quantity), spelling and orthography, and some differences in terms of grammar and how phrases are constructed.

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

Iberian Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are different dialects. It's basically equivalent to the difference between the English spoken in England and in the US, although the distinctions are more pronounced.

In Brazil they elongate their unstressed vowels significantly in comparison to the Portuguese, who tend to swallow theirs. This makes Brazilian Portuguese sound lighter and also a lot easier to understand. They also have a different pronunciation for S before voiceless consonants and for Z and S at the end of words; in Brazil it's pronounced as an 's', whereas in Portugal it's pronounced as a 'sh' (although there is regional variation in Brazil, so the pronunciation of the Cariocas leans more towards the Iberian, while the proximity of the Rio Grande do Sul to Argentina means that they further in the other direction, for example).

There are also other distinctions in pronunciation, but I think you get the picture. Then there are variations in vocabulary (think US versus the Queen's English, but greater in quantity), spelling and orthography, and some differences in terms of grammar and how phrases are constructed.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

He was £#%&!ing brilliant - although the goalkeeper perhaps should have done better with the free kick. Seemed to pass right through his hands.

Fantastic game too, brilliant entertainment. Watched the re-run at a far more civilized time, without knowing the result. Great way to spend the day off

The pyrotechnics on show in the stands before the teams came out really were amazing. Using flares to spell the name "Fluminense" in the stand behind the goal looked cool as £#%&!

Yeah, I actually got a bit caught up in all that and in the end wanted Flu to win.

You have to feel, with Guerron off to Spain and the struggle they'll face to keep Bolanos, Manso, Vera etc, United will go into the the tournament in Japan as strong favourites.

Originally Posted by MUFC One Love

Thanks.