Team v Bobby Womack - The Official Thread

Originally Posted by Whalefish

Not entirely sure about that. We need to improve the speed of our passing, far too slow at the moment which means opposing teams get behind the ball quite easily.

If that happens, and we're still struggling to find the net then perhaps a number 9 in for one of Tevez and Rooney is the way forwards. The latter two will then have to get used to rotation. Neither will be happy about that but hey ho...

Teams don't get behind the ball, we play in front of their defences because both Rooney and Tevez naturally drop off, we don't have a forward who even tries to get in behind, with maybe the exception of Ronnie from wide. We either need to get Rooney to play further forward, which he can do though I'm not sure how well at his current fitness level, or we need to play Saha.
If we play Saha, we cannot go to the 3 some are suggesting in midfield as none of them are natural in support of the attack, even Scholes isn't these days. If you have Scholes or Carrick playing a passing role in midfield and Hargo breaking up the play, ideally you need a player who can run with the ball and support the forwards, ideally from wide as the 3rd, neither Scholes or Carrick can do this and Giggs is struggling.
Look at Milans CL winning 3 man midfield to see how it should work. Pirlo palys deeper and runs the game passing the ball, Gattuso breaks up the play and Seedorf gets forward and supports the forwards.
I'm not advocating a 3 man midfield opersonally but if we are to play that way, we need to have that sort of balance in there rather than 3 players of which 2 do the same job.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

So 4-6-0 again? Interesting.

Don't be churlish, you know that's not how I see it.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

Don't be churlish, you know that's not how I see it.

Who is playing centre forward though? Who is supporting him? Who is providing width? I don't get that midfield at all as it seems totally unbalanced to me and there is still the problem we've had all season of us playing entirely in front of the opposition. Also you are gonna have both Carrick and Scholes AND tevez and Rooney occupying exactly the same space.It's been tried and this is what happened. I don't see why it'll change just by giving it anothergo?

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Who is playing centre forward though? Who is supporting him? Who is providing width? I don't get that midfield at all as it seems totally unbalanced to me and there is still the problem we've had all season of us playing entirely in front of the opposition. Also you are gonna have both Carrick and Scholes AND tevez and Rooney occupying exactly the same space.It's been tried and this is what happened. I don't see why it'll change just by giving it anothergo?

I don't remember you being this adverse to a Tevez/Rooney partnership when he signed. I seem to remember you saying that they can work together. It seems now though that we're destined to play 4-6-0 unless Saha is in the equation?

To be pedantic I think Milan played with Pirlo and Jankolovski (sp?) either side of Gatusso with kaka and seedorf behind a striker.

Similar to Barca's formation when they won it.

Either way they both had a striker.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

I don't remember you being this adverse to a Tevez/Rooney partnership when he signed. I seem to remember you saying that they can work together. It seems now though that we're destined to play 4-6-0 unless Saha is in the equation?

I was in favour of that but having watched them play I just don't think it works and have changed my mind. I will always prefer to use actual games and how they went over a theoretical selection and it's painfully obvious to me that we need a forward in front of these 2 having watched them. I also see Scholes playiing much deeper this year and as such not being as much support to the forwards, this to me requires that we have only one of him and Carrick when Hargo plays as the do too similar a job in this circumstance and thus leave us missing a vital role in midfield. As I say, I'm just basing this on the games I've watched and my assesment of them.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

To be pedantic I think Milan played with Pirlo and Jankolovski (sp?) either side of Gatusso with kaka and seedorf behind a striker.

Similar to Barca's formation when they won it.

Either way they both had a striker.

I'd agree that there are always different ways to read the formation, personel though cannot be argued. In my opinion, a midfield 3 of Carrick Scholes and hargo leaves you short in support of attack and of width.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

I was in favour of that but having watched them play I just don't think it works and have changed my mind. I will always prefer to use actual games and how they went over a theoretical selection and it's painfully obvious to me that we need a forward in front of these 2 having watched them. I also see Scholes playiing much deeper this year and as such not being as much support to the forwards, this to me requires that we have only one of him and Carrick when Hargo plays as the do too similar a job in this circumstance and thus leave us missing a vital role in midfield. As I say, I'm just basing this on the games I've watched and my assesment of them.

I don't think your assessment is incorrect and our goals return reflects that. But Tevez and Rooney have played a grand total of two games together. Surely we have to give it more time than that before dismissing the supposed vision of Fergie's idea, don't we?

None of this is exactly surprising. Did we expect Scholes to push on more this year? He didn't last year. Tevez is slowing finding his feet but Rooney is still lacking games.

You've even admitted that Rooney could play a higher role with a bit more fitness under his belt so it's fair to say that we haven't even seen the formation operating correctly yet.

These things take time. Frankly, I'm sceptical about the partnership but if Fergie believes it will work (with Ronnie in the equation too) and that it's the way forward then I'd like to see us persist with it. I think a lot of our stuttering performances can be put down to a lack of continuity in the side. I was pleased to see the same side against Birm that beat Chelsea. It's another game together for them and they'll need time.

I think Fergie sees the three as Carrick, Harg and Scholes with Ronnie, Roo and Carlos ahead of them. Whether or not we think it will work doesn't matter, I think it's fairly clear that the man in charge sees that as the way forward. If that's the case then I'd like to see it played with some consistency and given a proper chance to develop.

Even if it means Saha doesn't start any of the next two games

By the way JC, I suspect we'll be seeing Giggs in ahead of Tevez tonight. So abolutely zero support for Rooney. Look for him to get frustrated again, like Satdee and get sent off.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

By the way JC, I suspect we'll be seeing Giggs in ahead of Tevez tonight. So abolutely zero support for Rooney. Look for him to get frustrated again, like Satdee and get sent off.

That'd piss me off. The only player coming in for Tevez should be Saha.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

By the way JC, I suspect we'll be seeing Giggs in ahead of Tevez tonight. So abolutely zero support for Rooney. Look for him to get frustrated again, like Satdee and get sent off.

No question about that.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

That'd piss me off. The only player coming in for Tevez should be Saha.

Caution is the watchword at the moment. Might as well support the £#%&!ing dipper. Pack the midfield, give nowt away and try nick a goal from a set piece. Ah for those great days of '99 when we actually played like a United team should. Won a treble doing it too, I seem to remember.

kuszczak

brown (o'pie if not fit)
vidic (pique if not fit)
rio
evra

hargreaves
carrick

rooney

ronnie
tevez
saha

i think we've been missing attacking support from m/f the whole season. i don't think scholes can provide it any more and it may well be time for he and giggs to take a rest (though i doubt fergie will rest both against roma). anyway, i'd like to see rooney given a freer role so he can act as a playmaker and provide some threat arriving late in the area, while dropping back into m/f when we lose the ball. i'd have ronnie and tevez supporting saha from wide and trying to exploit any efforts by the roma f/bs to get forward.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Caution is the watchword at the moment. Might as well support the £#%&!ing dipper. Pack the midfield, give nowt away and try nick a goal from a set piece. Ah for those great days of '99 when we actually played like a United team should. Won a treble doing it too, I seem to remember.

That's kind of my point, it's about attitude and approach rather than personel.

I believe the talent ahead of a three man midfield has the imagination, drive and diversity to do well......I just hope Fergie let's them express themselves.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

That's kind of my point, it's about attitude and approach rather than personel.

I believe the talent ahead of a three man midfield has the imagination, drive and diversity to do well......I just hope Fergie let's them express themselves.

The personel affect the approach. Another attacking player from midfield supporting the attack from a deeper role is needed for us to genuinely get the best out of a front 3. None of the 3 mentioned are good enough iin this role. They can contibute but not to the extent that should be the case to play the way United should.
I just don't see why Tevez and Rooney can't be trusted to fill in in midfield as they do naturally rather than pretending Carrick is suddenly gonna become a driving attacking midfielder who gets up and supports the attack. I also don't see the need at United for Carrick and Scholes to do essentially the same job alongside Hargo.
If we had a different type of midfielder I could see the point, like when Giggs was playing well learly last year, his ability to run with the ball and support the forwards balanced the midfield well.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

The personel affect the approach. Another attacking player from midfield supporting the attack from a deeper role is needed for us to genuinely get the best out of a front 3. None of the 3 mentioned are good enough iin this role. They can contibute but not to the extent that should be the case to play the way United should.
I just don't see why Tevez and Rooney can't be trusted to fill in in midfield as they do naturally rather than pretending Carrick is suddenly gonna become a driving attacking midfielder who gets up and supports the attack. I also don't see the need at United for Carrick and Scholes to do essentially the same job alongside Hargo.
If we had a different type of midfielder I could see the point, like when Giggs was playing well learly last year, his ability to run with the ball and support the forwards balanced the midfield well.

So, seeing as you're a Carrick, Harg and Scholes fan, who would you have dropped to make a two? Or would you just rotate?

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

So, seeing as you're a Carrick, Harg and Scholes fan, who would you have dropped to make a two? Or would you just rotate?

Basically, I'd mix and match to some extent. I think there are games where a Hargo isn't necassarily as necassary as the more creative skills of Carrick and Scholes and others where you need him more. In the end I'd base my decision on opposition and the form of the players. I'd see it as a positive to have competition and options in our midfield.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Basically, I'd mix and match to some extent. I think there are games where a Hargo isn't necassarily as necassary as the more creative skills of Carrick and Scholes and others where you need him more. In the end I'd base my decision on opposition and the form of the players. I'd see it as a positive to have competition and options in our midfield.

I agree. In fact I'd do that with the whole team, especially the midfield and forwards.

This is why I'd pick the three man midfield tonight (considering the opposition) and Giggs would be the man sacrificed for this (considering his form).

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

I agree. In fact I'd do that with the whole team, especially the midfield and forwards.

This is why I'd pick the three man midfield tonight (considering the opposition) and Giggs would be the man sacrificed for this (considering his form).

I'd pick a three man midfield too then. Hargo and Carrick/Scholes with Rooney and Tevez making up the third.

Same again lads

Except for Nutsack of course.

And possibly Hargreaves for Scholes.

O'Shea will be cover if one of the defenders (Brown and Vidic) drops out. If both do, then Hargreaves at RB and Scholes starts. No problemo.

Saha for Tevez is also possible, but I'd leave it alone personally.