Antony

Thought as much. You seem to have this idea that I'm being difficult on this subject but I'm really not. There was a comment about AWB today saying what a useless signing/our recruitment is shit etc. Go to the signing of AWB thread "exactly the type of player we should be signing" etc how the £#%&! is that bad recruitment?

It hasn't worked for a lot of cases like AWB for example because the step up to United is just too big but for the most part it's purely down to bad management. That applies for everyone since Ferguson.

Originally Posted by believe

Thought as much. You seem to have this idea that I'm being difficult on this subject but I'm really not. There was a comment about AWB today saying what a useless signing/our recruitment is shit etc. Go to the signing of AWB thread "exactly the type of player we should be signing" etc how the £#%&! is that bad recruitment?

It hasn't worked for a lot of cases like AWB for example because the step up to United is just too big but for the most part it's purely down to bad management. That applies for everyone since Ferguson.

Just because I, or any other average joe be they a fan or not, thinks a player is a "good signing" does not make it so. With no malice whatsoever I cannot understand why you think it is?


I've used the example of Di Maria before. I thought it was a great signing, he was putting them on a plate for Ronaldo for years, looked to be a dynamic attacker who could score and assist. Brilliant I thought. What a signing.


But just in case you were unaware I am not employed by the club. I am not the manager. I am not a scout. It is not my responsibility to do due £#%&!ing diligence on the little rat who turned out to be a massive @#%&! and complete disaster whom we effectively paid £20m quid for for a season. If you want to blame LVG for that, by all means do so. I have a differing opinion in that particular case.

A good signing is only a good signing if they turn out to be a good signing. If we sign Mbappe and he turns out to be 2024 Rashford Mk.2, that's not a good signing regardless of anyone's opinion at the time of him being signed.


Who's fault it is that they turn out to be shit, that's the crux of the matter.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Just because I, or any other average joe be they a fan or not, thinks a player is a "good signing" does not make it so. With no malice whatsoever I cannot understand why you think it is?


I've used the example of Di Maria before. I thought it was a great signing, he was putting them on a plate for Ronaldo for years, looked to be a dynamic attacker who could score and assist. Brilliant I thought. What a signing.


But just in case you were unaware I am not employed by the club. I am not the manager. I am not a scout. It is not my responsibility to do due £#%&!ing diligence on the little rat who turned out to be a massive @#%&! and complete disaster whom we effectively paid £20m quid for for a season. If you want to blame LVG for that, by all means do so. I have a differing opinion in that particular case.

A good signing is only a good signing if they turn out to be a good signing. If we sign Mbappe and he turns out to be 2024 Rashford Mk.2, that's not a good signing regardless of anyone's opinion at the time of him being signed.


Who's fault it is that they turn out to be shit, that's the crux of the matter.

I've thought 95% of our signing were good signings, they were, why would signing Di Maria be a bad signing he played for Madrid ffs.

Originally Posted by believe

Thought as much. You seem to have this idea that I'm being difficult on this subject but I'm really not. There was a comment about AWB today saying what a useless signing/our recruitment is shit etc. Go to the signing of AWB thread "exactly the type of player we should be signing" etc how the £#%&! is that bad recruitment?

It hasn't worked for a lot of cases like AWB for example because the step up to United is just too big but for the most part it's purely down to bad management. That applies for everyone since Ferguson.

How can you struggle to make the distinction between scouts, coaches and directors involved with the money spent on player. People who are literally employed to watch games, analyse , find out how good they are and where they can possibly be, and say it’s the same as fans watching some games and thinking yup this player is good for us.

Maybe it’s ok to hold the people who are paid to do their job accountable than fans who 80-90% probably had seen a handful of palace games at that and know most about him through word of mouth / media.

Fans have an opinion on players, the staff are employed and have a big budget to make sure they get things right. It’s not hard to understand and differentiate

Originally Posted by Dasilvatwins

How can you struggle to make the distinction between scouts, coaches and directors involved with the money spent on player. People who are literally employed to watch games, analyse , find out how good they are and where they can possibly be, and say it’s the same as fans watching some games and thinking yup this player is good for us.

Maybe it’s ok to hold the people who are paid to do their job accountable than fans who 80-90% probably had seen a handful of palace games at that and know most about him through word of mouth / media.

Fans have an opinion on players, the staff are employed and have a big budget to make sure they get things right. It’s not hard to understand and differentiate

Di Maria
Great player for Madrid/France
Shit Player for Unite
Great player for PSG

Depay
Great player for whoever the £#%&! it was he played for
Shit player for United
Great player for whoever he plays for now#

Sancho
Great player for Dortmund
Shit player for United
Great player for Dortmund

Fred
Great player for a chinese club
Great player for United
Great player forFenerbache

Shall I go on? It's £#%&! all to do with opinions.

Originally Posted by believe

I've thought 95% of our signing were good signings, they were, why would signing Di Maria be a bad signing he played for Madrid ffs.

Because not every player who does well for one club does well for another.

You said it yourself, some players just don't. It's a well known issue particularly when it comes to United and the pressure of playing of United. Paul Ince was going on about it the other week - he played for United, Liverpool, Inter Milan and said nothing comes close to the pressure of playing for United. Some thrive, most don't.

In terms of scouting these days most clubs (certainly the top ones) will do deep dives on a players personality, temperament etc.

A player can be a world beater at one club and dogshit at another, we've seen that many many times. It is on the buying club to do their homework as much as reasonably possible on if a player is going to fit.


Is it a managers/coaches responsibility to get the best out of the player? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's their fault 100% of the time if the player turns out to be a bad signing. Look at all the shite players city have bought in the last 10 years. Or Liverpool. It doesn't mean guardiola and klopp are bad managers, it's just sometimes it doesn't work.

You think it doesn't work for us because we've had bad managers, whereas I think it's more down to a complete lack of a decent structure and clear direction with continuity from those above the manager.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Because not every player who does well for one club does well for another.

You said it yourself, some players just don't. It's a well known issue particularly when it comes to United and the pressure of playing of United. Paul Ince was going on about it the other week - he played for United, Liverpool, Inter Milan and said nothing comes close to the pressure of playing for United. Some thrive, most don't.

In terms of scouting these days most clubs (certainly the top ones) will do deep dives on a players personality, temperament etc.

A player can be a world beater at one club and dogshit at another, we've seen that many many times. It is on the buying club to do their homework as much as reasonably possible on if a player is going to fit.


Is it a managers/coaches responsibility to get the best out of the player? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's their fault 100% of the time if the player turns out to be a bad signing. Look at all the shite players city have bought in the last 10 years. Or Liverpool. It doesn't mean guardiola and klopp are bad managers, it's just sometimes it doesn't work.

You think it doesn't work for us because we've had bad managers, whereas I think it's more down to a complete lack of a decent structure and clear direction with continuity from those above the manager.

I don't think we've had bad managers at all, we've had three of the most highly regarded managers in the history of the game. They just couldn't manage United.

An example of my point is this. I said a few months ago that to manage United needs someone special that's why we've only found two in a hundred years and if we need to keep changing manager every 2-3 years until we finnd the right one then so be it. Won't mention names but i was told to "go to bed" "you're clueless" etc you know all the usual responses.

Over the last few week the same people have said "get Tuchel/Southgate etc in for a couple of years until we find a suitable replacement. It's quite comical.

Originally Posted by believe

I don't think we've had bad managers at all, we've had three of the most highly regarded managers in the history of the game. They just couldn't manage United.

An example of my point is this. I said a few months ago that to manage United needs someone special that's why we've only found two in a hundred years and if we need to keep changing manager every 2-3 years until we finnd the right one then so be it. Won't mention names but i was told to "go to bed" "you're clueless" etc you know all the usual responses.

Over the last few week the same people have said "get Tuchel/Southgate etc in for a couple of years until we find a suitable replacement. It's quite comical.

Fair enough. On the presumption finding another Fergie or Busby may take a while, in the meantime how about we put an infrastructure in place to give the great managers - of which LVG and Mourinho were definitely 2 - the best possible means to do well, instead of this insane strategy we've had of chucking bad money after good.


My final question along these lines to you would be: do you think Guardiola would have replicated the success he'd had at city if he'd joined us instead? Since you're saying it's just about the manager and nothing to do with the ownership?


The answer for me is a resounding, loud, "£#%&! no"

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Fair enough. On the presumption finding another Fergie or Busby may take a while, in the meantime how about we put an infrastructure in place to give the great managers - of which LVG and Mourinho were definitely 2 - the best possible means to do well, instead of this insane strategy we've had of chucking bad money after good.


My final question along these lines to you would be: do you think Guardiola would have replicated the success he'd had at city if he'd joined us instead? Since you're saying it's just about the manager and nothing to do with the ownership?


The answer for me is a resounding, loud, "£#%&! no"

If Guardiola had more money to spend at United than he has at City? Don't know the exact figures but has Guardiola spent 400 million on players he's previously worked with? Has he spent millions on donkey's to suit his style of play, knowing it was only for two years success? I'd say the answer is no.

No doubt you'll call me a City fan boy/Sheik lover etc but I'm sure it was you who said this week that who would have thought in 2009, 15 years later City would be treble winners and on the verge of four consecutive titles. Money doesn't buy you that, otherwise we'd have done it or still be doing it.

I know about five of City's players off the top of my head and barring Haaland none of them players who I think oh £#%&! he's the best player in the world. People talk about them like they're the Harlem Globetrotters or Madrid in the 90's (who no-one give a £#%&! about whether they were cheating or not btw) They're just a well managed side and I give Guardiola the respect for that at least. Phil Foden has been one of the best players of the season, how did they cheat to get him?

Originally Posted by believe

If Guardiola had more money to spend at United than he has at City? Don't know the exact figures but has Guardiola spent 400 million on players he's previously worked with? Has he spent millions on donkey's to suit his style of play, knowing it was only for two years success? I'd say the answer is no.

No doubt you'll call me a City fan boy/Sheik lover etc but I'm sure it was you who said this week that who would have thought in 2009, 15 years later City would be treble winners and on the verge of four consecutive titles.Money doesn't buy you that, otherwise we'd have done it or still be doing it.

I know about five of City's players off the top of my head and barring Haaland none of them players who I think oh £#%&! he's the best player in the world. People talk about them like they're the Harlem Globetrotters or Madrid in the 90's (who no-one give a £#%&! about whether they were cheating or not btw) They're just a well managed side and I give Guardiola the respect for that at least. Phil Foden has been one of the best players of the season, how did they cheat to get him?

Not sure why you're getting defensive about city all of a sudden, I simply asked if Guardiola would have replicated his success at united if he'd come here and had the same resources all the managers since fergie have had. A simple yes or no would suffice.


While we're on city, if all the on field success or otherwise is down to the manager, why did city bring in half of Barcelona's directorship in 2012?

Why do basically all successful clubs have a director of football and we're pretty much the only club that haven't? Are you seeing a pattern?

Why have Ineos brought in Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox? Surely we just need to find the right manager according to you

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

the little rat who turned out to be a massive @#%&! and complete disaster whom we effectively paid £20m quid for for a season.

we'll always have that turn on the half-way line at arsenal, though.

Originally Posted by believe

Fred
Great player for a chinese club

wait.... what? putin invaded china? this changes everything.

Originally Posted by believe

Madrid in the 90's (who no-one give a £#%&! about whether they were cheating or not btw)

aside from all of the people who do, agreed. but, if you count them, not so much.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Not sure why you're getting defensive about city all of a sudden, I simply asked if Guardiola would have replicated his success at united if he'd come here and had the same resources all the managers since fergie have had. A simple yes or no would suffice.


While we're on city, if all the on field success or otherwise is down to the manager, why did city bring in half of Barcelona's directorship in 2012?

Why do basically all successful clubs have a director of football and we're pretty much the only club that haven't? Are you seeing a pattern?

Why have Ineos brought in Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox? Surely we just need to find the right manager according to you

Yes then. The same way Mourinho would have done if he'd replaced Ferguson.

Why didn't INEOS bring in Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox to Nice given that that's the perfect formula for success? Surely they'd be competing with PSG now had they done that?

Why do basically all successful clubs have a director of football?

Be interesting to see this list.

Originally Posted by believe

Yes then. The same way Mourinho would have done if he'd replaced Ferguson.

Why didn't INEOS bring in Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox to Nice given that that's the perfect formula for success? Surely they'd be competing with PSG now had they done that?



Be interesting to see this list.

Erm , I don't think Nice have quite the same pull as United mate.


Lovely place though, maybe they should have asked the question.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Erm , I don't think Nice have quite the same pull as United mate.


Lovely place though, maybe they should have asked the question.

List of successful teams with a director of football?

Originally Posted by believe

List of successful teams with a director of football?

I mean you could Google it but sure.

Man City
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Liverpool
PSG
Munich
Leverkusen



You want anymore?

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

I mean you could Google it but sure.

Man City
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Liverpool
PSG
Munich
Leverkusen



You want anymore?

Originally Posted by believe

I've missed the joke clearly

Originally Posted by believe

Di Maria
Great player for Madrid/France
Shit Player for Unite
Great player for PSG

Di Maria was shit for France tbh

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

I've missed the joke clearly

Explain how successful Liverpool have been exactly under this new fancy DOF system

Originally Posted by believe

Explain how successful Liverpool have been exactly under this new fancy DOF system

Their first was appointed in 2016 and since then, as you know full well, they've won the Champions League, Premier league and (I think) the FA Cup and league Cup.

Are you pissed?